Episode 57 - Peter Young
Escaping a Cult: Faith after Spiritual Abuse and Isolation
Motivation N'at Podcast
Full Transcript
Natalie Bulger (00:01)
You picture a cult and you probably think of something far away: a compound, a leader in robes, crazy news stories that hit the headlines. But what if I told you it can look like your next door neighbor's family? Peter Young was smart, successful, faithful, and he still found himself trapped in his own family by a man everyone just called Uncle Robert. That's the thing about cults. They don't announce themselves. And once you're in, getting out might be the hardest thing you ever do.
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Motivation N'at I'm Natalie, your host. And today is an episode that I'm really excited for as a person because this is kind of my old school education was in criminal justice and psychology. And I just so happened one day to be perusing a Facebook group online for be a guest to host a guest and saw Peter Young's little infographic up.
And the first word I saw was cult. And I said, I am in. I've got to find this guy and reach out. And so just a disclosure for folks, there probably will be some sensitive triggering conversations today. If you have been in a relationship or been in a scenario where there has been manipulation psychologically, emotionally, feel free to skip ahead or skip past those parts. But I also think this is going to be a really illuminating conversation for people, especially in a world where we have this weird fascination with especially the mega cults that we've seen, the Jonestowns, the ones that always end up in the documentaries. But in reality, and Peter, you're gonna talk about this, there are so many micro moments that are occurring that we may not even realize. So let me introduce our guest quickly. He'll tell us a little bit more about himself. But Peter Young is an author, speaker, and cult awareness educator whose mission it is to help families recognize manipulation early and to protect loved ones from spiritual and emotional control. He speaks on healing, discernment, and rebuilding life after spiritual abuse. So, Peter, thanks so much for being here today. I know that you are making the rounds. You have been on a bunch of podcasts and conversations. You've got a book we're going to talk about, Save the Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger. so lots of ways that people will even be able to follow up and find out more about this. But tell us a little bit about you. Who is the tall man? Because that's you.
Peter Young (02:19)
That's right. Yes, Natalie, thanks having me on. I am the tall man in my memoir, Stop the Tall Man Save the Tiger. I give the little reader's digest version of me, born and raised in New Jersey, was obsessed with basketball, and I was gonna be the next Larry Bird, and that didn't happen. So I got into coaching and I was gonna be the next Mike Sheshewski or Bobby Knight, that didn't happen. And then I got into sports broadcasting, and I was gonna be the next Bob Cossas or Al Michaels, and that didn't happen.
But while I was a sports broadcaster is when all of this happened, I unwittingly married into this tiny but destructive religious cult. When I married the love of my life, and I had no idea I was joining a cult, I was marrying this beautiful woman who had a really weird and bizarre and mysterious, I'll call him family guru that we called Uncle Robert. And so that kind of sets the stage for all the craziness that came to follow.
Natalie Bulger (03:12)
I know I mentioned it when you and I chatted initially, this has started to be talked about a little bit more, especially when there are major situations that happen and people go, Did you know they were influenced by someone in like this microcosmic set of influences? And Andrea Yates is one of those. So if people remember that, a recent documentary talked about kind of this two, three familial group that is basically looked at at this point as a cult. And it's a really fascinating documentary. So to have you here to talk about this experience, I think is going to be really enlightening for folks. But I do want to know like what is as before we even dive into what happened, a lot of people don't talk about this experience afterwards. You know, we see it sometimes with Scientology or some of those groups, but in reality there's so much shame tied to this that you find that people kind of they just back with, they don't want to discuss it.
What drives you to want to have these conversations and to bring this it forward for people to recognize?
Peter Young (04:08)
Yeah, great question. cult leaders do try and control their members through guilt and shame. So did Uncle Robert, his real name is Robert Booty. He he certainly did that with me and the other, especially the men in our little cult, and ours was a small little cult. I don't feel any shame or guilt now, thank the Lord. I realize that what happened to me could really happen to anybody. And so what really drives me is that the journey in and out of a cult which is really the journey in and out of being brainwashed, is very painful. And I don't do not recommend anybody ever go through it. And so I don't want anybody to have to go through it. So if I can share my story, if I can share what I went through, and I can save one person or one family, help them get out of it, it's it's worth it. And for me to talk about it, it's it's therapeutic, it's cathartic to be able to, you know, have to look back over, you know, the destruction of my of my marriage and my family and see what happened over those twenty some odd years and really have clarity on it is very helpful.
Natalie Bulger (05:14)
Yeah, and I I think it's a message we can all take forward, right? And anything that we may feel defines us, but yet doesn't necessarily mean that's who we are going forward. It's an element of our story in so many ways. So let's just start from the very basic of what defines a cult. Because I know you've done so much kind of engagement and research on this as you've been on your journey. And we throw that word around a lot these days. But in reality, there is kind of a a really understood, recognized definition, and there are characteristics of the people who lead these defined cults. So what is that? What have you learned about it? And tell us a little bit so we can educate before we even get into the actual experience you went through.
Peter Young (05:58)
Sure, and I and I always tell people as a preface to this that I might not be the number one expert of cults in the country. I'm an expert of what I went through. And and I certainly didn't think it was a cult at the time, but having gone through it, now I've done a ton of research. So I believe all cults share two things in common. Number one is a cult leader, and then undo manipulative mind control. That's where they all start. Brainwashing.
From there, cults can come in all different shapes and sizes and look very differently from mass suicide at Jonestown to you know Heaven's Gate, everybody's wearing the Nikes and they think they're gonna, you know, tag onto a comet. and then there are those that are really kind of small, they fly under the radar, nobody ever knows about them, which was kind of my case. They can be physically abusive, sexually abusive, et cetera, et cetera. Thankfully, in my case, we did not have any of that. So that's why when I say they just share those two things.
It's the undue manipulative mind control, we sometimes call brainwashing, and then a cult leader. And also, I will say this, Natalie. I do believe that there's a difference between a true cult, and no one ever joins a cult. They always think they're joining something else, something better. There's a difference between that and manipulative, let's say abusive, unhealthy culture, right? So a church could have really bad culture. the military, a political organization, Republicans, Democrats, they can have really unhealthy culture. I think there's a big difference between that and cult, which is probably why what you just said, the word cult is bandied about a bit too much, I think, nowadays.
Natalie Bulger (07:35)
It is, and even I have to catch myself. I always had joked, you know, not intentionally to harm anyone, but that my mother could have been a cult leader. Like the way she worked things and engaged and would use language in a certain way and had a following of people around her sometimes, had a little bit of that reflection. But in reality, it wasn't what we're gonna talk about you experiencing today. So I think also just a reminder for us to be sensitive to your exact point. There is toxic culture, there is toxic kind of shared beliefs and systems that may manifest in a lot of different ways, but the cult aspect and the weaponization that comes with some of that is something that is a a more distinct in how it's formulated and developed. So you mentioned, you know, one of the aspects is being able to manipulate and to, you know, shift people's mindset, thinking, beliefs.
And I think it's a a stigma that comes with a lot of people that we apply to people who have been in cults. To your point, not joined, but found themselves in a cult at some point that goes, You're weak, you're gullible, you're naive, how could you ever fall for that? Break that down with us because it is not the truth in any sense of the means.
Peter Young (08:54)
And and so when I say, you know, I don't feel any shame or guilt, again, thank the Lord that I don't, because I realize after having gone through this, it could happen to anybody. So again, in my in my case, I found myself being brainwashed because I love my wife. So my ex wife, I call her Paige in my book, you know, she grew up in this family where this Uncle Robert character who was born and raised in Syria, wasn't related to anybody, kind of glommed onto Paige's parents, my former in-laws, and developed this very parasitic, dominating relationship with her parents. So she grew up in this world where he was the expert on everything. So when I married her, I knew he'd be a part of my life. And for years I kind of thought, man, just I was ready to get rid of this guy, but he wasn't going anywhere. And it took, you know, a good 15, 16 years for me to finally get kind of worn down and eroded, my defenses eroded until I was brainwashed. But I went along because I was trying to save my marriage. I I love my wife.
And cult leaders will go after the vulnerable. So they will not go after really strong people. They want people that are very, let's say, pliable and willing to go along and not ask questions. And for many years, I asked questions and cult leaders hate questions. My vulnerability, again, was I was trying to save my marriage. And so he knew that. So that's how that's what made me vulnerable. And thus I was able to be brainwashed by him. There's probably a million different ways that people can get sucked into a cult. No one ever joins one.
No one ever thinks they're in one. You never know you are in a cult. You only know you were in one. So if you are fortunate enough to get out of a cult, then you can, once you've recovered, hopefully, if you if you can, you are able to look back and say, my gosh, that was a cult. I had no idea. And so in that way, it is very subtle. and it has nothing to do, I think, certainly, with intelligence or making, you know, like one really bad decision. I do believe it could be chance, it's circumstance, but also it's it's the vulnerability. And so again, in my case, I tried to save my marriage. I think with a lot of people, they are searching, they want answers, they want to belong to something. Everybody wants to belong to something, right? A team, a university, a family, co-workers, whatever it is. And if somebody comes to you with, you know, this wonderful group of people and they're gonna love bomb you. That's kind of a cold phrase. You you join them and they give you all of this love and attention. We as humans like that. And and sometimes that's fine, sometimes it's perfectly healthy. You might join a church and everybody's friendly. Other times you might have joined the wrong group. And it's very hard to tell going in. I can share some warning signs though. There are some warning signs that I can share with you.
Natalie Bulger (11:35)
Yeah, and that's definitely where we're going right after this, because I want to know kind of what the first triggers were for you were. But your point about vulnerability doesn't always mean that you are a sad person looking for joy or that you are, you know, that I think what we picture in our minds sometimes is that initial go-to. It could be someone really smart looking for answers for something that no one's been able to give them. It could be someone who we don't even realize didn't have the relationship with their parents they were seeking. They're super successful.
We see this in intimate partner violence, one of the episodes I just did where it's sometimes the people you never expect, but that fills something for them, or they are dedicated to someone who's associated. And so it's so intricate from that perspective. So thank you for pointing that out. But let's get into what are some of those kind of initial signs? Like, what was the first time you were like, what's going on here? Like this is like those questions you were asking, that pushback, what what was that dynamic?
Peter Young (12:34)
Well, I knew before I ever met the man that there was something wrong with all of this. And and I'm not trying to sell you a book, but my memoir, Stop the Talmud, Save the Tiger, it's a fascinating story. It really is. I had heard about this guy before I ever met Paige. So I'm I'm the local six in ten sportscaster in Pocatello, Idaho. And Paige was, you know, six foot one, long blonde hair. She was stunningly gorgeous. You couldn't miss her. And and I didn't know who she was. I hadn't met her yet.
And I'm at the gym working out with my buddy Gary, and he's like, I know who that is. You know, that's Paige and her sister, but be careful, they've got this weird family guru. That's before I ever even met her. So when I did meet her at a singles Bible study, we start dating, and she talked about the guy all the time. And again, without having met the man, the way she talked about him to me was really unhealthy. I thought, wow, this is really odd, her relationship to him. And I didn't meet him for like another six months and I was ready to ask Paige to marry me, but I couldn't do it until I met him because I knew you know if Paige and I marry, this guy's gonna be part of my life. So I met him at her brother's wedding, and I thought, he's odd and eccentric, but largely harmless. And that of course was wrong. so I knew, you know, very early on that this was certainly different. You know, at best, different and odd. At worst, this was really unhealthy and sick. And what am I getting myself into? But I was in love.
I was totally blinded by love. I loved this woman. I was ready to get married. She was everything I wanted in a woman. And for many years of my marriage, I was well, for most of my years, I was I was happy. I was perfectly faithful. Love this woman. but it was very slow and subtle. So again, the warning signs were there right away. The analogy I give of how long it took for me to get brainwashed was, you know, if you mishit a golf ball by this much, like in an eighth of an inch, and I usually mishit a golf ball by this much, but if you mishit a golf ball by a little bit, hundred yards down the fairway, it's way off to the left or way off to the right, nowhere near where you intended it to go, but you just missed it by this much. Well, we would have these conferences, we would meet with Uncle Robert, with all of us on the call, which is like a dozen people, and he would read to us from the Bible. But then he would give each and every verse his little perverse twist or interpretation. So that five, ten, fifteen years later, we're way away from what the gospel, I believe, is trying to say. And so that's probably the best analogy of how long and how subtle it could be. But yeah, those warning signs, again, before I even met the man, they were there and I knew there was something to miss.
Natalie Bulger (15:06)
There's a gut feeling, right? And people pick up on it. So even if the folks that are already kind of ingrained maybe don't see it, they're still telling you something by their actions, by their words. And but even those warning signs can so easily kind of be set aside. And you know, love is blind, right? So yeah.
Peter Young (15:27)
And the and the biggest warning sign, so again, so but I saw them right away. But then I get married. He lived in Southern California. We lived in Idaho and Montana. So we didn't see him all the time, but he was always a cell phone call away. And so for many years, my wife would talk to him almost every day. And so the the biggest warning signs that I could share with the audience, if you're gonna take away, you know, two of them, they would be this. Number one, Is you are more vulnerable when you are alone, when you do not have a strong support system, whether it's friends or family, coworkers, you name it. In my Christian faith, you know, there is the the the the teaching that we're the body of Christ, right? Okay, so if I cut off my thumb, I'm not gonna die. My thumb is gonna die. I'm not gonna die. Well, my wife and I, and you know, my in-laws, we were like that little thumb that got cut off. We would go to church and then my wife would call Uncle Robert, well, here's what the pastor said, and it was always wrong.
So we left church after church after church and we just stopped going. And we didn't really have any really close friends. There was no one in my life that could say, Peter, wait a minute, what did this Uncle Robert guy say? There was no one there to ask me those tough questions. And so then we became isolated and thus vulnerable. And then number two, these are the real obvious red flags, is the truth doesn't mind being questioned. And if if anybody you know you know, sounds like they have all the answers, but they hate questions. Questions, that's a huge red flag. So like I go to the church right down the street. I can walk to church on Sundays. You know what? My pastor and I don't don't agree on everything. And he knows that. And we we have these frank discussions. And that's okay. He's he's willing to have me ask these questions. And so are other men that I talk to and bounce ideas off of. But cult leaders hate questions. They want blind obedience. To me that's a huge red flag.
Natalie Bulger (17:16)
Yeah, certainly definitely sounds like one and and you know, makes us question a little bit about them as people, which, you know, I'm sure we'll touch on at some point. But, you know, you mentioned your friend was the one that kind of was the first one at the gym to go, you know, just be careful kind of thing. So, you know, d how were you pulled away the closer you got into your relationship with your wife from those friends? Cause you had people that kind of were like, What probably what are you doing? you know, was there a Was that one of those slow moments of you just see them less and less, or what what did anyone ever give an ultimatum? Like you are crazy for doing this or getting involved in this?
Peter Young (17:54)
No, because I'll tell you why that never happened, because you know, again, cult leaders, I think everybody mentioned it earlier, also control their members through isolation, paranoia, and secrecy. So, you know, Uncle Robert only knew the true gospel. Uncle Robert only knew who the real powers in the world were being they were always out to get him. So we had to shred our trash. There were certain words we couldn't say on the cell phone. you know, there's a verse in the Bible, don't share your pearls before the swine. Well, of course, the rest of the world was swine.
Everything out of Uncle Robert's mouth was the pearls. So we always had be careful because we couldn't share things because people just wouldn't understand Uncle Robert. Which of course now I can look back and say, Well, no, they would have realized he was crazy and they would have said something. So then we kept it really tight. So it didn't share with people. So my family, so my parents are still alive, they're ninety-one and eighty-nine, and my brothers and their wives and my nieces and nephews weren't a part of this at all. I live in Montana, they're on either coast. So they kind of
knew about this uncle, what's his face, but they weren't a part of it at all. So I kind of distanced myself from my family. And then, you know, like my friends in our in our neighborhood, they had no idea this was going on. Again, they kind of knew, well, the young have this uncle so-and-so guy that, you know, is apparently a don't know, a mentor, whatever. They had no idea of the inner workings. And so that conversation that you're talking about, other than when I first, you know, was in the gym talking to my buddy, that never really happened.
And it was a there was a reason for that because the cult leader doesn't want that to happen. They don't want anybody from the outside questioning him. And of course, he would phrase it as they're swine, they don't understand the true gospel, only I do. You must stay away from them, Peter and Pai. Whereas in reality, it's very healthy to have disparate voices in your life. You don't have to agree with all of them. But I think it's important to have different voices. And of course, that was not allowed in our situation.
Natalie Bulger (19:50)
Yeah. Well, and you've mentioned so it wasn't even just you and your wife. You've got some kids as well. So your wife was born into this and and grew up in this scenario. And now you're having children yourself. So now it's not even just you. It's a whole family unit that's kind of involved. you know, what complications does that add if and when you start having the moment of, okay, this isn't like it's not right, and maybe I'm not, you know, in the kind of situation I want to be in, but now I've got kids, I'm still in love with my wife. Like what what pressures came with now having that expanded responsibility?
Peter Young (20:29)
Well, for me, divorce was never an option, you know, and I love the woman. I I was never gonna divorce her. she finally did, she left me and divorced me, you know, after twenty years. But, you know, family was everything to me. You know, I I I'm one of five. Paige was one of five kids. We had five children. I loved having a big family. but there's another trait to cult leaders that is very pernicious. It's evil. and and when you peel the the layers of the onion back, Natalie.
Whether it's Jim Jones or David Koresh, you know, in Waco or or a much tinier cult and even this, you know, Robert Booty guy, cult leaders share a lot of the same characteristics. It's kind of scary, actually. And one of them is that they will try and destroy the nuclear family, either blur the lines of the nuclear family or destroy it. So in our case, there were my in-laws, and then which would be like you know, Grammy and Grandpa to my kids, and then my wife and I, and then my kids. So that's three generations of people. But in reality, Uncle Robert would kind of cultivate this atmosphere atmosphere to where we're all like little children. My in laws, my wife, and I, and my kids are all on like the same level. We're all just little immature children, and Uncle Robert is our father. And the cult leader will try and cultivate that so that way the grandfather doesn't have any authority. I, as the father, don't have any authority, all authority rests in Uncle Robert. So my in laws called him Dad. they're about the same age. And then we called him Uncle Robert, my kids called him Grandpa Bob.
And you know, the probably the most tragic part about what happened in my situation was so when she left me after about almost 20 years of marriage, it was really to draw closer to her cult leader, which of course she would deny all this. She thinks I'm the bad guy and this is all wrong, because unfortunately I still believe she doesn't see the truth. So she left me, you know, to draw closer to him. And then, you know, I was perfectly faithful for these 20 years, so she's done something clearly unbiblical.
So if you know, if the kids are like, well, hey, you know, mommy, if daddy still loves you, why did you leave? Well, of course, Paige wasn't going to take the responsibility for this failed marriage. So then she and Uncle Robert started to teach our children that I was the devil, that I was Satan, that I was a sorcerer, I was an abuser, a liar, a fraud, et cetera, which would give her cover and the excuse to leave, which of course, all of this is untrue. So then they taught that to our kids. And, you know, the youngest at this time, I think, was like six years old. And so they're literally being taught that, yeah, you know.
Daddy's the devil, I had to leave. and we're helping your your dad out by telling him that he's the devil so he can finally change. Well, I mean, that's just it's awful. You know, you are always that child's father, you are always that child's mother. And we are all imperfect. Again, for my Christian faith, that's why we need a savior. If I was perfect, I wouldn't need one. but to, you know, to call the the parent the devil and Satan, it's just awful. And that's that's one of the you know, very tangible, you know, blunt, raw in your face consequences of of what I went through. Because again, there was no physical or sexual abuse at all, thank God. But there was this, the destruction of of my family. And that's that is emotional abuse of children.
Natalie Bulger (23:40)
you mentioned how many, like your wife was one of five. Did all five siblings stay in this cult? Did any leave? Like we know in in some worlds there's apostates, right? That they they are you don't talk to them anymore once they leave. Very much sounds like that was the approach, not only not talk, but actually
you know, make you a bad villain in the story. Did it happen to others? Did you see it happen over the course of your 20 years that you were involved with the cult.
Peter Young (24:06)
Absolutely. And so again, there's this one guy, Robert Booty, that really so you know, Peter Young, my wife's family was the Clauses. So, you know, he really affected, I think, four or five generations because when he kind of glommed on in a very parasitic way to my former in-laws, they then started to shun their father, their parents. So my former wife's grandparents. And so then Paige was one of five kids. Well, you were either with Uncle Robert or you were the enemy.
And about 25 years ago, you know, one of the sisters was like, I don't think this guy is who you think he is. And she was viciously, viciously shunned. We couldn't say her name. any kind of photos that were around the house, removed. Like she was just cut out of their lives, along with two other siblings. And then on, you know, that claws inside of the family, you know, aunts and uncles and everybody that did not bend the knee to Robert were were vilified and shunned. So
And I saw all that. So I saw all that before it happened to me. So we'd only been married like two or three years when this split happened. It was awful to watch. I remember wondering what is going on. And it was all because of this Robert Booty guy. You either believed everything he said or you are wicked and a danger. And so yeah, Paige, I mean, Paige hasn't seen, I think, two or three of her siblings, as far as I know, and I don't talk to her anymore, in over 20 years. And again, the aunts, the true aunts and uncles, and everybody was shunned.
And so I remember seeing all this and thinking, Well, I don't want to be the next one. I love my wife. I don't want to be the next guy to get kicked out. And and that's exactly what happened seventeen years later.
Natalie Bulger (25:43)
Yeah. And it you touch on fear being one of the you know, things that folks use. So you can look at that and be like, my God, th this is so weird and so wrong, but also internalize, well, I don't want to I don't want to go through it. I don't want to lose everything that I have or to be on the outside or anything like that. So even taking things that people could see as those warning signs and twisting it to be like, You don't want this to be you, what other fear tactics were potentially used over the course of time. You know, you mentioned their swine, you know, elements like that, but were there other was there financial fear at any point? Was there anything you know, else that was weaponized in that route?
Peter Young (26:27)
Well, I'll I'll share two of them. the first one I'll just touch on and it's like I don't want to go down this rabbit hole, but y you know, he was convinced that you know if you go back in the Bible, there's the story of these two twins, Jacob and Esau. Jacob becomes the twelve tribes of Israel, Esau becomes Eden, which becomes modern Jewry. The Jews are out to control the world. We've heard this a million times, right? Okay, so so you know, he would s instill that fear with you. I mean, like literally every plane crash, every psychologist was a Jewish conspiracy. Okay.
And then it's a little exhausting. And then the second one was and they used this on me, which is that you know, only he knew the true gospel. And you know, the Christian faith is very simple, which is the beauty of it, which is we can't earn it. There's nothing you can do to earn your salvation. It is a it's a gift, pure and simple. Just like you did not naturally get to pick your parents, nor did I. We were born. Well, in the Christian faith, you are born again. It's a gift, you believe. That's Christ gives it to you. Okay. So he would again twist and manipulate that very subtly, very artfully, and very cunningly to where if you know if only he knew the true gospel, and you know, you're still trying to pick up what he said, you're not saved. And so that kind of goes back to the title of my book, Stop the Toll Man Save the Tiger. Paige was given a dream, I believe by the Lord, before we ever even met. Robert twisted it.
Turned it on its head 180 degrees to convince her she was a demonic fraud and not a saved Christian, even though she'd professed her faith and been baptized. And she believed it. And then she was the first, you know, adult in that little cult that caved and said, I was not saved until Uncle Robert stepped in and saved me, which is completely unbiblical.
And then like a year or two later, it happened to her father, and then her mother, and then sixteen years later, me.
And so all the adults we would have you know denied or renounced our former faith and would have said that you know it was only until the intervention of Robert Booty that we became saved, which again is wicked and unbiblical.
Natalie Bulger (28:36)
Yeah. So we've touched on how you kind of found yourself in the situation, some of what went on while you were in it. What what is the exit story of it? Like how long did it take? What were the steps that you had to consider? What were the things you lost in the process? You know, you've mentioned you loved your wife up in the use and and that was lost in this. What is that? I hate to say very traumatic process. And the length of time that that you went through it.
Peter Young (29:07)
Yeah, it was hard. so she left me in January 2017. Again, I was devastated. I I w at the time I would have been brainwashed. I was I mean, I you it's hard to say, well, I was unbrainwashed on a Tuesday, but you know, I would have been brainwashed for probably let's say two years. in the last two years that, you know, we were together. And so when she left me, you know, I was all in, I was devastated, did not want to lose the marriage. And I thought Uncle Robert was gonna save my marriage. He was the he was the answer that was gonna piece it back together, which of course it's it's the exact opposite. He was the reason all this happened.
So I I I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep, I was a wreck, I was never suicidal. But you know, I'd lost 30 pounds, I was sleeping like an hour a night at best. And nobody knew. So my family didn't know, you know, my parents and brothers and sister-in-laws, the people in our community didn't know. Nobody knew. You know, when Paige left me, again to draw closer to Robert, you know, she said, Don't tell anybody. Of course, I did exactly what she told me because I was a shadow of a man at that point. I was so beaten down and emasculated.
And then I would talk to Uncle Robert for hours and hours, you know, hoping that somehow he would be able to turn this ship around. And, you know, he was telling me you're incapable of salvation, you are filled with a legion of demons in the celestial court of law, pages, you have no defense, what page is sharing, you're a you're a demonic fraud. And I'm listening to all this. And then when they started, Paige and Robert started to go down the road of you know, I'm a completely faithful husband. And, you know, my wife left me, which was unbiblical. She has no, you know, cover for this. Well, we got to give her some some cover. And they started to tell the kids that I was a demonic fraud and devil and all that. And the kids started to believe it. At that point, even though I was brainwashed, I knew that was wrong. So then I finally, after four months after my wife left me, reached out to my family, told my parents, they were stunned. They had no idea. Like it from the outset, it looked like we had a great marriage. And then it was nine months before I told you my co-workers and and friends in town. So early on I told my friends and family, please don't say anything negative about Robert or Paige, just please support me and help me. And I was a wreck. I mean, I was it was bad. So it took a f probably a full year of lots of really love and support. And my family and friends immediately surrounded me with love affection because they, even though they had no idea what was going on. They also kind of knew, mm, you know, I'm not so surprised I'm hearing this.
Paige can be very domineering and and self-righteous. And they knew this Uncle Robert guy was a little off. So it took about a year for me to finally realize, you know, Robert's not this savior. He's probably what started all this. So yeah, I lost my marriage. My family was destroyed. you know, she eventually filed for divorce. We then got what's called a guardian ad lightum. And so I had to have, you know, friends kind of help me find lawyers. Cause I I I could barely get up in the morning. I mean, I was a wreck. so they really did help me get through it. And then Garden had light himself the courts appoint to look after the best interests of children in a very high conflict divorce. Ours was about as high as it get. And because you know, she is openly, because again, she feels like, well, I have the pearls of wisdom in Uncle Robert, so the rest of the world is wrong. So she wasn't even trying to hide it at all in letters and in emails.
She's calling me the devil, you know. And well, you've lost the kids, and you're gonna lose all the other ones as well. And and so they hearted garden and light him. She wrote a jaw-dropping 50-page report. And when Paige had left, she took the three youngest kids with her to her parents' house in Idaho, cut off my access. Well, the court sent them back to me. And so then the three youngest came and lived with me, and the two are still with me to the day. This has been eight years. So, you know, the court process dragged on for years but my you know, recovery, thank the Lord, really. A lot of prayer and a lot of support. And and then remember the analogy I gave about the cutoff thumb. Okay, so then I finally, you know, kind of got like, let's say, grafted in. And I had lots of other voices in my life, not just the one. And I would and I would share everything with these people what's going on, and they would help me see, you know, Peter, you guys would tithe to him. So again, tithing is where you give 10% of what you make to the church as a way of saying thanks.
You guys would all tithe to Robert and he called casinos the true churches in America. He considered casinos his office. And they're like, You guys tithes every month and he would spend a lot of time at a casinos. And I'm like, when you put it like that, it doesn't sound good, does it? But in the moment I didn't see it because I was brainwashed. So
with all of these other voices helping me to see, I recovered.
Natalie Bulger (33:52)
Well, and and I I wanna respect privacy of the kiddos, but I do have to just say, okay, so your kids have been fed this information. And I I was the child of a contentious divorce, nowhere near yours, and went through a period where I was convinced my father wanted nothing to do with me. And I refused to talk to him. I re he would come to baseball games, I wouldn't even look at him. You know, so you're trying to heal yourself, and now you have children who have been forced potentially to come back to you and be with you.
That had to be really hard as well to like reestablish an a different relationship and get their trust back, not because you did anything, but because they were potentially convinced that they should not trust you to any extent because you are evil.
Peter Young (34:38)
Yeah, you know, the kids were taught the fifth commandment of the Bible which says, Honor thy father and mother, and you will have a long life. That's the only commandment with a promise. They were taught it didn't apply to me, because it only applied to dads that love their kids. And of course, your father doesn't love you. So they literally thought that. Yeah, so then then when they come back to me in June of 2018, you know, the youngest about a month later said, Dad, I love you. and then the the next oldest, it was about two months after that, you know, said I love you.
And and and their kids, they want to love their parents. And so they it took them a while, but they saw. and and what would what made it really hard for me was I didn't want to do the same thing back to their mother. Like I knew, yeah, I
Natalie Bulger (35:20)
I was just gonna say that. Yeah.
Peter Young (35:22)
knew how unhealthy she was. I knew all this was going on. It was awful. I mean, it again, if you read my book, it's like, ugh, it's just awful what they did. But I also believe, you know, that Paige wasn't always like this, and I believe it's because of Uncle Robert, you know.
Robert, it was like a computer virus from him into her into the kids. And so in many ways, my kids are a victim. I'm a victim. So is Paige. She just doesn't know it. So it was a very delicate balance. And I just had to show the kids love. And they would say some things and just roll your eyes. And you know, well, yeah, Dad, you don't love because you know you're a devil. You can't argue with an eight-year-old, you just have to show them that you're not the devil, that you love the child. And so and they saw it and they recovered. but you know, parenting's a marathon, not a sprint. So with some of my children, the relationship is is definitely not severed but close and damaged. And I just pray for them every day that one day we will have a healthy relationship.
Natalie Bulger (36:25)
Well, and I think in at the end we'll talk about some of these support pieces to remind people what you can do. But you mentioned going to your parents and telling them and explaining what you needed, but also that welcoming ability, they weren't like you were crazy for 20 years. We we're not helping you now. And that being something that at least now you've had modeled for you and you can reflect back that in 15 years, if the same thing happens, even if they do sever that you can be that same responsiveness because you were, you know, provided that as you reattached your thumb and I do want to tell people we're we're these are cliff notes of the book. So definitely the book is going to provide so much more if you dig in and you listen to it, read it. But one of the things that caught me when you were talking about that is I assumed that you left and that's why your wife left you. Like I'm leaving this call, you come or not. And it wasn't that case. And I think that's really interesting because it it implies that things were happening behind the scenes, right? So the groundwork for he's not worthy of you, I'm the only person you should spend time with, even though it's not this like leave your husband and marry me. I'm, you know, Uncle Robert. There's still that very manipulative who's deserving of your energy.
Did you see it coming at all? Were you blindsided? And what do you think may have been like what were you doing, if anything? Or was this really just the mind child of the cult leader going, I might be tired of having him around at this point? He's been a pain in my side asking questions in the past.
Natalie Bulger (37:59)
Like, let me let me meddle in here.
Peter Young (38:03)
Okay, so there's a couple little anecdotes and stories to answer. That's a great question. But first and foremost, Paige was always Robert's most important convert. Again, Paige is tall, beautiful, well spoken, confident. She's got two master's degrees. Robert is this short, portly guy with a big nose, bald head. He's got no money. He's never really had a job. And so when he walks in the room, like, why would you follow this guy? But now you've got Paige hanging on his every word. Paige gave him instant cachet, instant credibility. And that was always the case. So when you go back to the beginning, when he manipulated that dream to make sure that Paige saw him as her savior in in effect, that's why he was so important. And that set the stage for the next 25 years or so. So Paige is always the most important convert for Uncle Robert. Okay. So now you go back to let's say five years into our marriage, about 15, let's say, I had lost my wedding band, couldn't find it.
Bought a new one. Ten years later, finally found it. But now I've got two wedding bands. Well, right about that time, Robert had lost his wedding band. Well, Paige barely had to ask me. And I sent him the original wedding band that she put on my finger when we got married because he didn't have one. And Paige was so proud of me for sending him my wedding band. So here's this guy who's wearing my wedding band. You go a few years later. Robert had two sons. And then they married, had granddaughters.
He had no grandson. So there was no one to carry on his precious bloodline. So we've had five kids. We had talked about having a sixth. We go out on a date night, and Paige shares this burning desire to have another son, but not for me. She wanted to be a surrogate to provide Robert with a male heir to continue his precious bloodline. So she wanted to be pre you know, get pregnant and have a grandson for Robert to protect his bloodline. And then, you know, two years later.
She calls me a sperm done on the bloodline as a pejorative. So there's that. And then right when she left me was January 2017. That's when Donald Trump got inaugurated for the first time. So she and Booty go back to DC and are there for two weeks to kind of take in all the inaugurations. Well, what does that sound like to you? Kind of sounds like a honeymoon, doesn't it? And so all of this kind of happens, it's very disjointed and not connected, but now I can connect it in my mind.
And again, I don't think there was anything physical going on at all. I sure hope not. But emotionally was she, was Paige, you know, a tied to Robert more than me. Yeah, probably for most of our marriage. She would have respected and honored him in a way she rarely ever did me. And I did see that. And it bothered me. It hurt like crazy. I wanted my life to love, my wife to love and respect me. And she loved and respected another man more than me.
Natalie Bulger (40:56)
Well, just each one of those feels like it's just a crazier, crazier No, it's it just
Peter Young (40:58)
Yeah, take a deep breath. Sorry.
Natalie Bulger (41:01)
again goes to show why we all need to read the book to to see because again, those are small micro moments that when you put them together, they just are kind of mind blowing. But in the moment, it's it's just another thing that happens. So one of the things that really intrigued me about your story and your talk is that you are someone in and you we've heard it on this episode so far.
You have not lost your passion for your belief system, for your religion, despite the fact that it was weaponized against you by Uncle Robert. And I think that is something that's one of the fear tactics, at least when I see these stories, is people are afraid that if they leave, they've left their faith. If they leave, no one in their belief system will ever welcome them again. they don't trust the faith now. They're just like, was it ever real in the first place? And then that's a whole
you know, abandonment of even self and who am I. And you were able to shift it and actually use it as part of your healing journey. And I would love for you to touch on that. So I mean, we mentioned full disclosure, I'm not a practicing religion. I was raised Christian. I I still lean to that component. But it's so religion is so important. Beliefs are so important in so many people's lives. And understanding you don't lose it because you leave a situation.
You rediscover it, I think is an fantastic message and would love to hear about what that shift was. She said you go to church down the street now. Great. Like how did you how did you rebuild this relationship for yourself?
Peter Young (42:36)
Sure. it points to another ubiquitous trait of cult leaders, which is they try and act as a gatekeeper to God, whatever faith or religion you're in. So again, for me as a Christian, the Bible is very clear. There's one way through salvation, it's Jesus Christ. That's it. There's there's no second. You don't need an Uncle Robert, you don't need anybody else. There's no pastor, no priest you need to go through. There's no extra gate. Again, the Bible talks about Christ being the gate, and we're the sheep, right? He's the shepherd, all this symbolism.
So for a guy like Robert to kind of come in and kind of keep raising the bar, well, you're not ready to be saved until he says you are. Again, wicked and unbiblical. And when I look back, I kind of was convinced several times that I was not a believer. I had missed something all these years, some elemental truth about the Christian faith that only Uncle Robert knew. And I was so fortunate to be around him, which is just an utter lie. But at the time it seemed true.
So even though I lost my marriage, I lost my family, and I thought I lost my faith in Natalie, I never did. And again, there's this symbolism of of or the story you've heard about, you know, like the the footprints in the sand. You're walking side by side, you know, with the Lord. And then in the roughest moments, there's only one set of footprints. Lord, why did you leave me in those tough moments? And it's, you know, the the story, it's not it's not biblical, but it's a great little story. And the story is I was carrying you, you know, during those moments. That's why there's one set of footprints.
So I never lost my faith. It's the only thing that got me through it. I literally think I would not be alive if it
were not for the Lord rescuing me. And I also tell people, yeah, again, I lost my marriage. I mean, I lost my family. I still have a relationship with some of my kids. And it was horrible what I went through. But you know what? I am so thankful that I am the man I am today. I am so thankful that the Lord has used this situation in my life to make me.
A mature, strong, not perfect, but a strong, mature, much wiser man now than the weak, lame excuse of a husband and a father I was because I was so beaten down and emasculated. And so that's why I share this story. There's a story in Luke 8. You might have heard of it. There's a guy that's demon-possessed, and he's living in a cave and he's out of his mind. He sees Christ, Christ saves him. Now he's in his right mind.
And he asks Christ, he says, Can I follow you? Paraphrasing. Christ says, No, I got something more important for you. He says, I want you to go home. Sorry. I want you to go home and tell your friends and family what the Lord has done for you. And that's what I do.
Natalie Bulger (45:22)
Well, and I can just feel if you're watching, you can see the emotion. We can feel the emotion in your voice. And I appreciate you sharing that. And I think it's a, you know, even though I don't practice anymore, my favorite thing is to look back at Psalms and look at them at face value, right? They're the most beautiful stories, I think. And it's a wonderful reminder, you know, the one everyone knows, Psalm twenty-three, even though I walk through the sha valley of the shadow of death, you know, I feel no fear no evil. And so many times.
We are in those dark places that you mentioned. And sometimes just seeing something, an anecdote, a story, whatever it is that you rely on that you leak back to at the face value of what it is, and not over-controlling it or over-reading into it, which is what Uncle Robert did to you and to everyone else was that manipulation of that conversation and just going, When I read this and I hear this, what does it instill in me? And trust it because that.
Reaction is what you're meant to have in so many ways. And I it sounds like that's kind of what happened. And you've had people that have been so welcoming to bounce those ideas off of the pastor as you're relearning this relationship to question, did you share with your new pastors along the way, like, hey, this is where I've come from? Like if I sound a little weird, this is why.
Peter Young (46:38)
So I I literally live in a little community called Church Hill. You know, there's this private Christian school of churches, literally, that's where I live. And I would say half the town has read my book. And and another key point is as I just thought of this, because this is really important for your audience, is that cult leaders don't start spouting utter nonsense and lies right away. They start sharing the truth and then they slowly twist it and manipulate it. And and that's certainly the case with Robert. He shared a lot about my faith in certain what would you call it, certain aspects of my Christian faith, economics and history, et cetera, that I still believe is the truth. Not all of it, obviously, but a lot of it, you know, he really knew what he was talking about. And then he would, you know, just take it to lengths where it shouldn't go. But that's a key message for the audience is that you're not gonna be able to spot the cult leader right away by, I mean, look at the nonsense this guy's sharing. It's gonna sound really good at first.
And then once you are kind of invited in and you get sucked into it, that's when it turns dark and evil. So you really have to ask good questions. And if you're not getting good answers, leave.
Natalie Bulger (47:52)
Well, Peter, as we head to this wrap-up, I want to go back and reinforce a couple of things. One, if people walk out of here today and they're going, you know, I'm thinking of something, someone or something that has felt a little off, how they can reach out in a way that isn't combative or isn't, you know, like you're doing something wrong? Cause that's something that we tend to like, how do you not know what you're in?
So how could someone re-engage or attempt to just say, hey, I'm here if you ever need anything? Like what does that process look like for if we think we have someone in that environment? And then the second part is if those people leave, reinforcing what helped you along the way or even how we can coach. So if someone just goes, I've left, maybe they don't know to ask what what they need at that point. So I think those two things for the support system that might be listening.
Peter Young (48:46)
So the first thing to keep in mind to answer your first question is the person that you think is being brainwashed has no idea. That's really important to understand. They have no idea. If they truly are brainwashed, they think they're in the greatest thing ever. So you, as the friend or family and the loved ones, see it. So you have to take the initiative. And again, as part of that, one of the most important things to do is to keep the communication open. And so one of the quickest ways to shut down communication is to accuse and the boss and say, You've you've got to see this, you gotta get out.
Ask good questions, keep the communication lines open, being very patient. It's gonna be, I'm sure there were things that came out of my mouth that my family and friends were just rolling their eyes, and they were very patient with me as I spouted nonsense until I finally realized I was spouting nonsense. So you have to take the initiative, be patient, keep the lines of communication open. And then as that person is is coming out, you know, listen, do a lot of listening.
Because I needed to talk. I needed to be able to get it out and share what was going on with me. And yeah, I saw a a counselor for a for a few months. But really for me, I was so blessed with I'm not trying to knock counselors, but I had friends and family. They didn't charge me to talk for a couple hours. And so I had a lot of people in my life of so fortunate to have that. You know, I had a brother in North Carolina. I would call him at like 7 a.m. because it was eight a.m. his time or nine a.m. And then after like an hour on the phone with him, I'd call the brother in California.
And talk to him. And I did that every day for like three hours every morning because I couldn't get through the day without it. And they would listen to me. And so the biggest thing is just to be there and and listen and and ask good questions.
Natalie Bulger (50:28)
And that probably looks at a little different if someone's been expelled from, so like you in a lot of ways pushed out versus aggressively leaving. Like the thing hit, I am running, which we see in a lot of polygamy faiths and things like that, where, you know, they're just looking for a safe shelter to be in at that moment. And maybe they don't want to talk about anything, you know. But the so there are again so many different situations that are leading to this outreach initially, that I think approaching it with curiosity and with.
Safety, whether that be emotional, physical, you know, anything being so big. Well, Peter, I just want to thank you for this amazing conversation. As we close, where can people find more about you? Where can they find the book? Is there anything else they should be keeping an eye out for? all of that stuff, because I'm sure there are so many questions and people will be interested. So tell us where we can locate that stuff.
Peter Young (51:20)
Sure. So can go to my website. It's authorpeteryoung.com. And all of my books, I've written three of them, but Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger, the memoir we talked about. You can find that on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. I think it's on other retailers as well. And and then I have also written two other books about faith in basketball. And and a third book in that series is coming out later this year. So you can go to my website and find all about.
Natalie Bulger (51:45)
And you do speaking as well, I think. So there's a whole lot of different ways to engage with you from that aspect. If folks wanna have this conversation from their own perspective, because I'm sure there's a lot of different sites from that end. But Peter, any other resources maybe we should mention or touch on things that helped you along the way that you went to that we can also suggest?
Peter Young (52:06)
Well, for me, it was, you know, being able to find a local church and have good fellowship. Again, to me, that is the biggest key. And again, for me, it you know, it's my church, but it doesn't have to be Bible study. It could be bowling league. It could be Friday night beers. Get out, be in fellowship with other people. And again, in my church, I I have these wonderful conversations. Not everybody believes with my certain doctrine. That's okay. We're still in fellowship. We're still learning. We're still on this journey together.
Natalie Bulger (52:37)
Well, thank you so much for an open, honest, emotional conversation. I think that you have served well in the tell others what has been done for you along the way. So if I can validate that, thank you from that end. And for everyone that's listening, all of this information will be in the show notes for you. So click on down, check it out, and share this with someone who might be interested. And again, we don't know what we don't know. Your eyes might be open now to some different things along the way. So apply that perspective, ask questions.
Approach with curiosity. And I'm excited to talk to you all again very soon. And thank you, Peter.
Peter Young (53:12)
Thank you.