Episode 56 - Caroline Degnan
Members of the Dead Dads Club - Reflecting on 20 Years of Grief
Motivation N'at Podcast
Full Transcript
Natalie Bulger (00:00)
Caroline and I both lost our dads when we were just 18 years old. Now we sit down to talk about what 20 years of processing that grief has looked like, including what we wish we knew and what we're still trying to figure out. Join us for an open and honest discussion about what life looks like after you lose someone you love.
Today I have a wonderful guest who is probably going to bring emotions out in both of us. And odds are bring some emotions out in you as well, especially if you have been through the grief journey that we've touched on in a few of our other episodes. And so just buckle up, take care of yourself during the conversation. If you need to pause, come back, whatever might come up but again, as always, with the wonderful referred guest that I get, Caroline, who I'll introduce in just a second, came to me via friends. Someone listened to the podcast that I went to grad school with, was like, my God, I love that topic. By the way, I have someone that you have to talk to. And as Caroline and I chatted, it was like meeting your twin in so many waves, just right here in the Pittsburgh area. so I think this is gonna be a really robust conversation.
And so without any further pause, let me introduce Caroline Degnan. And hopefully I said that right. Usually I confirm ahead of time, but Caroline Caroline is a licensed professional counselor in the Pittsburgh PA region. She has specialized training in treating postpartum and perinatal mood disorders and has extensive experience treating anxiety and depression, attachment issues, grief and bereavement, today's focus, OCD and relationship issues.
Her goal is to help you recognize your emotional strengths and how you utilize different skills and strategies to advance in life. And not only is Caroline on the treating side of this, she's on the lived experience side too. So, Caroline, I'd love to give you a chance to introduce yourself and then we are going to slowly work our way into this topic about grief and all of the really complicated elements. So thank you for being here. Over to you.
Caroline Degnan (02:08)
Yeah, thanks for having me. yeah, grief is one of those things that oddly enough is one of my favorite things to talk about. because I've been through it myself, but also I've kind of created my life around it based on what I've been through. but yes, I am a licensed professional counselor in in and around the Pittsburgh area. I've been doing this for I've been in private practice for over 13 years. It's the best job in the world. I get to walk with people through their toughest times, but also their happiest. and I always say, like, I laugh so much more with my patients than we do cry. And trust me, we do a lot of that too. but it's wonderful. I get to I get a first hand seat with them. And it's just always say it's such an honor to be invited into people's lives like that. So yeah.
Natalie Bulger (03:00)
Well, and the the colleague that we both colleague friend, we both have, you know, said, you know, Caroline helped me so much when I was going through the loss that I had. And is something I think you and I both know is that in times and moments, talking about the grief and the experience that you've been through can be really hard and really cathartic at the same time. So you know steals your joy but then also opens up new things for you to explore and new experiences to kind of touch on, so not to just kind of throw it out there but I'm gonna do it. Right when we right when we were planning this, you're like, I have a celebration of life I'm doing this Friday. And then you know mentioned the loss of of your dad. So like what has your personal journey with this been and how do you come apply it? As you kind of sit on both sides of the table.
Caroline Degnan (03:51)
So when I was 18, two weeks into college, my dad died very unexpectedly in a car accident. and it was shocking on every every level. my dad was my favorite person. he still is, and I still, you know, he's still such a part of my life. But at 18, I had no concept of loss. I had lived a very lovely, safe normal life we'll say. And then all of a sudden it's just blown up in in every single way. and so, you know, cognitively at 18, I I didn't know what was going on. And so I, you know, went into some probably very unhealthy coping strategies. but I just dove right back into college. I didn't want to process it. I just wanted to be normal. which I mean at 18, like that's all you want.
And I was at a pretty mid-sized college, University of Dayton, what's up, wonderful place. they supported me in lots of different ways. But I was the only one who had lost a parent. Nobody around me had lost. I mean, people had lost grandparents, and I'm not diminishing that loss, but it's very different when it's a parent. And so I was just so alone in that. but luckily there was a a nun who was doing a grief group at Dayton.
And I remember vividly walking up the like walking up the hill to that group to this day. I will remember that. And that group changed my life because it was the space where I think there was like five of us that first night. All of us had lost mom, dad, brother, andor sister. And it was like we could just sit with each other in it and not feel uncomfortable, making other people feel uncomfortable. Cause that's so much of grief when you're in it. It's like I'm so uncomfortable, but I don't want to make other people feel uncomfortable. And I'm just gonna push it all down and be as typical as I possibly can. Granted, that didn't bode well for me a few years later when I was like, I didn't process this at all. And it's coming back to bite me. but because it was it it very much overtook everything about me. and so for better or for worse, that's that became my focus of study. I wanted to understand dying. I wanted to understand grief. I how I coped was by learning about it through the academic side of it. I wrote my thesis on grief and bereavement of college students and talked about where where the the supports were lacking, why grief as a college student is so different from any other age, not better or worse, just very different. and then years down the road, it was like, okay, well, what do I do with this now? I want to keep helping people. I want to talk about this. I know this better than anything else ever. And so why not focus on it? and so that's how I found my way to counseling and grief work and all of that. granted that, so my dad died in 2004. and now I'm I've just turned 40 and in January, my one of my very, very best friends died unexpectedly in a car accident. We're done with cars. Like, we're done with that now. and so that was just a very shocking experience for so many reasons because I thought I knew grief. I was very comfortable with my grief. and then this was so different because this felt different. This everything about this was different. And so I wanted to go into grieving Lauren very differently than I grieved my dad. for myself, just because I know how much that first experience took from me. And I just I know so much from the clinical side, but also just personally like how I could do it in a more healthy way. And that's really what I've been working on these past few months. but it sucks regardless. losing anyone is awful.
And it's lonesome and it's just really confusing. but I found that like there was a better way for me to do it for myself this time. So
Natalie Bulger (08:18)
Well, and and bringing that up, I think it's important that we can acknowledge that as everyone knows, we all grieve differently, but it doesn't even mean that we grieve the losses we go through in the same way. And I have the parallel story. My dad died it, you know, when I was 18, just I was still in high school. It was expected a little different in the, you know, he had been sick for a while, but the whole atmosphere around his death was so toxic and horrible. that it was the same kind of way it was get on with life, get out to school, you know, don't don't use it in as an excuse for anything, despite the fact that it probably was. And I'll always remember after that, I just I hate I didn't want to say I didn't have empathy or compassion, but people would die in my life or my f people I know would go through stuff and I'd be like, life goes on.
Caroline Degnan (09:07)
Well, and it's just very strange experience where you've experienced the worst and so nothing really compares. And so yeah, it feels like, do I not have a soul? why am I not heartbroken when this is like happening to people around me or whatnot? And it's you have to like check in with yourself of it's okay to not like that's a that's an appropriate response when it's like not your people or when it's not yours.
But it just feels wrong. Yeah.
Natalie Bulger (09:37)
It and it it feels dirty in a way and like it's like a whole new piece of then and I've always worried will someone notice that I'm not maybe not authentic and how I show up or that, you know, I'm the one that's trying to organize everything because I feel best situated to do it like we you joked about last week with you. It it manifests in so many capacities and it's not always emotional. But I mean, I think you mentioned when we were prepping even physical or mentally that there's these fluctuations and changes you can go through add hormones at eighteen to the to the discussion.
Caroline Degnan (10:14)
Yeah. And you're just you find different ways to compartmentalize and figure out how to get through day by day. And but some people will look at that and be like, you're not grieving. And it I wanna I just have such a reaction when people say like you're not grieving correctly or like you're not processing this. How are you like, how do you know me? How are you so how could you say that? And I understand people are coming from a I hope they're coming from a loving place of I'm worried about you. I'm how are you? But there's no right way to grieve. There's there's healthier ways versus more unhealthy ways, yes, but there's no
There's no book for this. I mean, you even the academic aspect of it, there's even the stages of grief that we're taught, those are not actually it. That's that's like what she was talking about, the I forget what her name is off the top of my head, but she was talking the stages of grieve of death. So all of those like depression, denial, bargaining, acceptance, all of them. That's actually the process of death, not grieving.
And so that was the, like that's a misconception that we have.
Natalie Bulger (11:28)
You had shared a story about kind of grief is a disruptor in our life. So the event, the actual loss is a disruptor. And then the waves of grief disrupt on top of that. And meanwhile, our lives are continuing. We have events, we have work, we have all of these things. And now this disruptor has come in and thrown things off, which creates its own complex feeling situation.
Walk us through a little bit of that, not only from what you've been through, but from what you've seen others trying to navigate, because i you don't wanna neglect how you feel in that moment, because those feelings are valid, even if they may be misunderstood by others.
Caroline Degnan (12:06)
Well, like the f with the first lost, it was I was 18 and I was those first two weeks of college were the best two weeks of my life. I was I was having so much fun. I loved it. It was I was like my best self. And then two weeks in, gone, done. There goes the happiness. And then with Lauren, I got married in March and she died in January. She was supposed to sing at our wedding. And I just felt so selfish and also just very confused of like, I am the happiest I've ever been. This is the happiest thing that has ever happened to me. I've worked so hard to be able to be happy for my wedding, knowing that my dad's not there. And then this loss happens, and I just was like, am I a horrible person for feeling jipped that I I'm happy.
But now I can't be happy. Or am I allowed to be as happy as I want to be on my day because Lauren's not there? She was supposed to sing at our wedding. but also then am I allowed to be happy because my dad's not there? And all of these things are really confusing.
it's just like this weird dichotomy of the worst and the best. But also like I have a full-time job. I like I'm trying to keep shit together for for lots of people on top of having to regulate myself so that I can do my job. Because I cannot walk into sessions and be in my feelings about Lauren or about my dad. I have to check myself and not in a numbing way.
But just as like, this is my stuff. it's not right for me to put my stuff onto other people. And but we have to do that in all careers. you can't go into a meeting that's very important for a company and just crumble. we we can't. And granted, I think that there are some spaces where that's much more there's a there is more empathy and sympathy for that, but in a lot there's not. And so it's just it's very difficult to figure out how can I feel this, turn it off when I need to, but then also learn how to come back to it. And that's where the idea of like intentionality comes from.
Natalie Bulger (14:29)
But this is a great element of the too bladed, or you know, the the double conundrum of making it about you, right? It is about you. You have experienced the loss, and yet you also are trying to take care of yourself and other people are going through their own versions of this and you want to be there for each other. But if your cup isn't even, you know, partially full, like that you what do you have to give? So it it's and I I guess I would ask, what's the in this segment, we always do it at the end, but like a reminder for this that when you're in the middle of that, what do you have to remember about yourself and about those around you that are experiencing maybe this loss in their own way?
And everyone wants to be there for each other, but you're also like, well, if I I can't talk about myself because I don't want to take away from you, what do we need to remember?
Caroline Degnan (15:29)
that grief is a grief is the universal experience. And by bringing it to the forefront of actually just acknowledging like, how are you? And not in a comparison way, but just as that that unifying way of I I've gotten to have a really interesting and really great relationship with Lauren's brother over these last few months. A lovely surprise evolution of this tragedy. And I always like am conscious, he lost his sister. it's very different than me losing my best friend. And I'm not comparing them, but I I think it is important to like there's different levels of this. what he's going through is not what I'm going through. But I think it's so important to just be very direct of how genuinely how are you?
Like let's not placate each other. What's going on? and not attempt to fix it or to say like that's okay, or any of the awful phrases of she's in a better place or things like that. But just to be real with each other of what are you going through today, this second, last week. but also if if somebody comes in and they're like, I'm okay today.
That's okay. And trust that. That's not necessarily them saying, I'm not processing it or I'm not being honest. Someone might actually be okay that day. And that's great. And but if they're okay, that doesn't mean you have to be okay. if I was having a day and her brother was in a good place, it's okay for me to say, I had a r I had a meltdown last night. I really missed her. And I'm really missing her right now. And I'm just feeling it.
To know that somebody's in it with you, even if it's not at that exact second, is everything because you're not alone. grief is just so isolating and lonely because we're all so afraid to talk about it. And we're all just we don't want to make others uncomfortable. But spoiler, we're already uncomfortable. So why not just kind of like sit in it together and be able to do that
Natalie Bulger (17:46)
it's a reminder I needed, right? Which is trust the people when they tell you something. Cause even if they aren't even if they're saying they're okay and they're really not, the maybe the it's not opening that can today is not the day.
Caroline Degnan (18:01)
I have to go into this like thank you for asking me, but I have to go into this meeting right now and I can't go into it at that second. But thank you. And maybe I'll come back to it, maybe not. And it's it's just asking the question genuinely that I think is the most important thing. And being willing to be uncomfortable with somebody is such a gift.
And it it if there are just but there are some people that that can't be on that just can't do that and that's not there's nothing wrong with that or they're not not being a good friend or a good spouse or a good daughter. It's just that some people can and some people aren't ready, willing, or able to.
Natalie Bulger (18:47)
And I don't think any of us want to question ourselves if we're like, no, I feel good today and then someone's like, Do you really? And then it's like, mate, do I?
Natalie Bulger (18:57)
So, you know, it I I think that and I always say in a lot of episodes, the beat that you take to just go, before I talk again.
Caroline Degnan (19:05)
Yeah, I check in. And even that, like that's such a good thing. so our bodies, if there's ever a book, The Body Keeps the Score is such a good book, but it's it's not just about grief. But our bodies will tell us. And so if I'm talking and I like will feel it in my throat, like, ooh, there's something there. Am I able to bring it up or not? And I'll know right from this, right from when I feel it of like, ooh, there's something there.
Do I want to open this or not? And but do I not? And that's it's a skill that kind of like I've developed over time to know my body and know what it feels like. But it I mean, when I was first, especially when my dad died, I would just feel it and I couldn't stop. I just was like, I gotta walk away because this is happening. I'm gonna cry right now and I don't want other people around me, but like, whoop, there it is. And you just gotta exit the situation. Or if you're in a place with people, like you can let it be there. But that's sometimes a hard it's a hard group to find
Natalie Bulger (20:14)
go back to the intentionality piece. And it was funny when you brought it up. And I want to know if it's the same kind of premise or it's just where my brain jumped to. But you had mentioned the premise of intentional grief and grieving. And my brain was like, that thing in shrinking where the girl sits down for 30 minutes and says, I can listen to my music and I can cry as much as I want. And it feels absurd for a second, and like, can I tell my brain to grieve in that moment or not?
And then I realized I do it every time I drive because I I talk to myself when I drive and I don't care who sees me. I'm crying. The person driving next to me doesn't care, you know, as long as I'm safe with it. But it I have, I guess, created that space over time. So talk to us about this idea of intentional grief and grieving and how people may want to start considering it, especially if they're maybe having struggles with intrusiveness of the grief, which I find is one of the most unpredictable components.
Caroline Degnan (21:11)
Well, and shrinking as a therapist, I cannot watch therapy shows or therapist shows except for that show. That show is done done so perfectly on so many levels because well and there's but there's definitely some I will never have a patient live in my pool house if I had pool house. But you know. But I love the way that they've they talk about grief and they go right towards it because they show so many different
What's the main character's name? Jason Jason, yeah, the tall guy. Like that's complicated grief. that is complex grief to a T in so many ways. But then like Alice, his daughter, goes into this like really rough experience of having to like keep everything together. So then she didn't process it per se. But yeah, so the idea, and I don't know if I if I heard the idea of intentional grief or I've just been saying it myself. It's probably been coined by somebody, but I've just been saying that I'm trying to grieve intentionally. is that like having more control and choice in the grief, so that when I am grieving, it feels as big as I need to be. I'm in a space physically, mentally, and emotionally where I can just melt down if I need to. I can what I like sometimes I'll like talk to Lauren out loud or I'll talk to my dad. The car is always my place to. I will have full-on conversations with my dad about lots of things. And that's just this space where I'm alone, it's confined, like is yeah, driving safe, we have to be careful of that. But it's it's my choice. Granted, especially in the begin like the beginning part of grief, there's not a choice. It is every ounce of your body, it's every second, it's waking up reminding yourself this is real life. And so intentional grieving like I think is a later on experience versus right when it happens because it just is all encompassing then. But with the intentionality, it's I know that after after my wedding, there was a month leading up where I was very like, I can't, I can't think about Lauren being there or not being there. But then as soon as I got home, I'm gonna think about now. I was able to sit just by myself, my husband wasn't home, and just think about like I'm really sad that she wasn't there. I'm really sad that I didn't get to hear her laugh or I didn't get to hear her sm or see her smile.
And it felt really good to be able to do that and just be in it. And then about 30 minutes later, I could regulate and I was okay. I called my mom and I was just like, This fucking I'm I don't know if I can swore. This sucks. This really sucks. I hate this. I hate this so much. And it felt safe to do it. Because I could be in that space and then breathe and come back to ground. but leading up to it, I just I knew if I went there, I might not be able to bring myself back out of it,
Natalie Bulger (24:29)
And sometimes you can prepare and sometimes you can't. But if you ironically set aside time when you may not feel as if you even need it, but it you know, it's a moment to say, yeah, I am gonna go watch that video or I'm gonna scroll on Instagram where anything might pop up and make me feel a certain way. Like, you know, to if you need it, it's there. And then sometimes it helps with that unexpected moment or at least you can go, wait, I'm I'm gonna come back to this. I'm gonna revisit right now. I can I can save a little bit of energy knowing that I have that approach that I can lean on and touch on.
Caroline Degnan (25:09)
Well and I think that also works really well. So like breakups. Breakups, end of divorce, breaking up, those are also a type of grief that I don't think people talk about a lot. But that's like that kick in the gut stomach, too, of that person is still alive too, and that's just a whole other realm of it. But, you know, I went through my fair share of breakups throughout the years and that I had to practice intentional grieving for those, very much so, because you have to go on through your day. especially if you're hearing other people talk about their relationships, happy relationships too, when you're like diving into those and you're like, here's this kick in the gut right now. Check in with yourself. And then later on in the day, sit in your bed for half an hour.
Write letters to the person, yell out loud, talk whatever you need to do. But that's a a good opportunity to practice that because it will just like that intrusive just thought of my gosh, whether it's death, divorce, anything, any type of loss, when it pops in, it pops in and woo, it like kicks, yeah, kick in the gut type of experience.
Natalie Bulger (26:26)
So you mentioned, and I know it far too well, the the component of college is the worst place to grieve in many places, because you're trying to learn new people. You're oftentimes in a new place, you've lost your comfort spaces because you're in a dorm with someone else and you never have your time. you know, any of those major life transition moments. And I remember if anyone's in the Pittsburgh area listening.
When I first found out about the caring place, which was years later, but it is a basically driven by this idea of Mr. Rogers had in making space for children and their family members to come and, you know, work through a process when the child has lost someone, sibling, parent, really anyone that that can impact them. And I remember I went in and I volunteered for a few years and I was, where the f was the was the 18 to 25 version of this when I needed it. because I wanted a fidget spinner to sit with while I was trying to like process things. and you mentioned this idea, there's something called a grief camp. and I'm sure there's other versions of a carrying the carrying place and stuff like that. So talk about the actual settings where that have been made now over time to have this place with trusted professionals to support the complicated premise of grief in certain age groups or demographics, stuff like that.
Caroline Degnan (27:49)
Yes. So I can go on and on about grief camp. It's my favorite place, thing in the entire world. And interestingly enough, when I was writing my thesis in college, the idea of these was just starting to evolve. And so I was reading about it and I was like, these sound really cool. I wish they really existed. And I th I think they did at that point, but now it's becoming a very it's a thing. I found so the the organization I have worked with, do work with, will continue to, is called Experience Camps. And they it's a free week-long camp. there's camps all over the country. and the participants are ages nine to eighteen, boys and girls, and they've had to loss have lost mom, dad, brother, and or sister or primary caregiver. when I say that these camps are magical, I truly mean it.
Because most of not all, it's not a requirement to volunteer or work there to have lost somebody, but most of us who work there have lost somebody. And so it's this wonderful little bubble for a week where everybody gets it. And we have designated clinical time. it's an hour-long clinical activity once a day, where we talk about our people.
you talk about your grief experiences. I've worked in different positions there. So for the first two years I worked there, I was a a grief specialist. So I was a therapist there. this past summer I kind of transitioned. So I'm a bunk counselor. I just wanted to be with the kiddos more and not be a therapist I'm a therapist every other day. but it just gives these kiddos this space where everybody else around them gets it.
We talk about our people very openly. it's it's the the death grief jokes flow freely and giggles. it is so much fun though, because it's also just a place where these kids to get to be kids. They we do summer camp stuff. there's always water activities, there's games, there's everything you could possibly think of. It's just kids being kids who have lost. and it's just this really safe place. there's also with experience camps, there's adult camps. So this coming weekend, actually, it's called for the adults. and it's mini grief camp for adults. and again, it's just these really magical experiences that only happen there. But these kids are kids besides having lost somebody. So they're still dealing with kids' stuff. Like they're still teenagers. Like, my.
My age group is like 13 year old girls. They're the scariest group of kids at like that's the scariest age because they're it will cut you with like one sentence, or you will feel like you've won every lottery in the world if they say they like your shirt, you know, that type of thing. But it's just the coolest thing. so I encourage anyone to like, if you have any interest in it, look it up, contact me, con like.
I've it's it's a very wonderful community that goes beyond the week at camp as well. so I just I could talk for days about like being like experience camps. I carry with me anywhere. So yeah.
Natalie Bulger (31:27)
Well, and it also can serve as a respite for the parents or the caregivers that are caring for those kids, you know, to to take a time for themselves. And we talk about being able to set aside maybe some intentional grieving moments for themselves. so that ripple effect even in existence.
Caroline Degnan (31:42)
Yeah. Yeah, and for the parents to know that their kiddos are safe physically, mentally, and emotionally to go into something that they might not every other week of the year. I was I've been shocked sadly to hear kids are brutal to each other. And I just could never fathom that kiddos could face backlash from peers having lost a parent or whatnot. But like that's that's real, unfortunately. But at camp, they get to talk about, like this person said something really mean to me at school. And all of their friends are like, that's really messed up. no one should ever say that. Like, you know, let's talk about your person. Tell me your person's name again. Like let's show me your pictures. And it's it's so wonderful. And so like the parents all come on the last day, and that's just, it's the parents just melt too because they're so excited to see their kiddos.
And they'll share stories with us of like, you know, they carried this coping strategy that you taught them all year, or they've made friendships now with other grief campers that they see outside of camp, or it's just it's so neat and it's such a s like just special place.
Natalie Bulger (33:00)
So if you're listening and you're like, I need to know more about that now, feel free to hit pause, go to the show notes, find the link and look it up. We won't mind if you come on back a little in a minute.
Caroline Degnan (33:08)
There's camps all over the country. There's starting a new one in Texas this year. There's gonna be a new one in Colorado next year.
Natalie Bulger (33:14)
you know, we're we're talking a lot about our, you know, how we're processing with ourselves upon the loss of someone. But something that came up, I think, on the the grieving sisters and definitely in all the other grief conversations is that there's this weird continued relationship that a lot of us have with the people that we have lost. And maybe it's with the story of who they were and it's us trying to understand our experiences that we had with them when they were alive. Maybe it's this component of, you know, are they still around and watching over me or having the conversations in the car? What are some of those, you know, it's not necessary that you try to continue a relationship with your lost loved one, but, you know, what are some ways or books or references that might be out there that we can tap into for how to still feel connected even once we've lost?
Caroline Degnan (34:06)
And I always wanna preface like everyone's religious and spiritual beliefs are absolutely their own. And there's so much respect for all of that. I think each person develops their own belief system about that next what happens after themselves. And that was actually a really important part of my grieving process is to kind of decide for myself what I thought was next or what it all meant.
An incredible book is called Signs. I don't know the off our offhand, but it's just called Signs. and also there's hospice nurse Julie. she became like very like TikTok, Instagram famous, I think, really during the during COVID and whatnot. But she's written an incredible book about the death process itself. And then her experiences as a nurse watching that and just belief systems surrounding that. but we kind of touching on grief camp again, one of the big jokes is that like someone will see a butterfly and they'll be like, whose mom is that?
Whose dad is that? It sounds so morbid, but it's so perfect. We all have our things. you'll have your signs for certain people or like a few weeks ago I was in my feel is about Lauren. And I was like, Lauren, I need you, I need you to just let me know that you're there. And we have an inside joke about fire. We've been friends since we were 14, just fire, whatever. And I was up late, nobody else was up. And in our little front entrance chest a smoke detector started going off that has no batteries in it. Like and to me that's pretty blatant. okay, there she is. But to other people, that would be like, that was just a malfunction. Whatever. You blew a candle out or something. That's why that happened. But for me, I choose that to be Lauren. and it's my choice to like for what I want it to be. And I've said a lot, like, I feel like I have a closer relationship with my dad now than I ever have.
And I granted he's been gone for over 20 years. So it's it's hard for me to remember our relationship to a lot of extent. But he shows up in ways that really make me very secure and that there's something or that he's some somehow involved in this. And it feels good. It feels like safe. But I think each person needs to develop their own relationship with that.
And I know in the beginning, like I was not, especially with my dad, I was not open to it. I was just like, Nope, that's too hard. That's too painful. I don't even want to consider that he could still be here because I want him here. I don't want anywhere else. I don't, I don't want it. But then as I started to open up to it, it created just a a level of comfort that I didn't know I needed. And then you start looking and you start paying attention and like cardinals are a thing, butterflies, hummingbirds, all of them. Each person is their own. And who are we to say that it's not them? Because we don't know. but what if it is? You know?
Natalie Bulger (37:39)
it links back to that just listen thing. So even if we don't believe it, you know, my weird one is I always thought I aligned blackbirds like with the red spot on their wing with my dad. And just a couple of weeks ago, there we found a well, I didn't find there's a wetlands kind of water conservation area, 10 minutes from our house at most. And it is filled with blackbirds. I've never seen so many in my life. I mean probably 40 to 50 that are flying through this like tiny little spot. And so occasionally I just go down and I'm just like cool. this, I don't believe I don't necessarily believe they're all him, but there's like something really comforting about this thing that was so rare in my life now being really abundant.
Caroline Degnan (38:18)
And like what a great place to just go and like sit and like think about him or talk to him. And it's like even if it just like like a song pops in and you have that opportunity to think about them, that is them. Or even having the opportunity like to say their name out loud. Like I love talking about my dad. I love talking about Lauren. Like to say their name makes them real.
I there's some quote and I'm gonna misquote it, but it's like the saddest moment of anyone's life is when stop someone stops saying their name. And so forever I will be constantly like talking about Terry, talking about Lauren. Cause like they did live. They are living in with like within me. And so like I'm gonna keep saying their name.
Natalie Bulger (39:08)
it doesn't cost anything to sit and listen to it. You don't have to in like I have to say, even absorb it into yourself because i it's not meant and I think we hear this a lot in a lot of conversations. You can listen without the need to respond or to react in any way. You can just be a a place for those words to land for that person.
And go on about your day. So entering without expectations. So if someone says a photo fell off the wall today and I think it was my mom, you know, to not be like, are you sure? Was that like again, questioning or yeah, I had the same thing happen. And for neurodivergent people, that's really hard, right? Because we want to identify and we're like, yeah, I've been through the same thing. But in that moment, right, the just hit me with that stuff.
Like let it, let it wash on you for a second.
Caroline Degnan (39:59)
Yeah, and not try to fix or like that when someone's saying that it's not them looking for comfort per se, it's just space. Yeah. It's it's hard. It's hard. And it's but it's also when you learn how to do it, like my favorite thing is to learn about other people's people. Like speaking of what's your dad's name?
Bob. Yeah. It's my grandpa's name. Yeah, it's a good name. Solid name. But like just saying that, like saying it out loud and having space for it.
Natalie Bulger (40:39)
sometimes I I think you don't even realize how much space you have to open in yourself. And so we keep it in a lot, right? We're not sure who wants to hear it. It's why the car is so nice, cause you can just verbally state it. And there's so much power in just taking like bringing volume to your words in a way that lets them exit your body for a second and to hear them back to yourself. And sometimes it's for stupid stuff, right? Where I'm just like, you know, feeling a certain way and then I can almost hear my dad go, seriously. Like
And that's that relationship piece. I I don't know if he would have, but it's like the gut reaction I have to that. Mm-hmm.
Caroline Degnan (41:15)
Yeah. you're right. Like Yeah. And you you you want to listen to it even if what you know they're saying to you like doesn't really align with like, I wanna feel all this, like but they're like, just take a take a beat. Take a beat. You're like, Okay, okay. But it's fun. It's that fun, interesting, different relationship that you have with them. Like
I don't know my dad as an adult. I never did. I was just entering into adulthood at 18. So I only knew him as my like child self. And so sometimes like those messages will come in. I'm like, is this what he would have said to as an adult? And I just kind of have to trust it of like, yeah, like
Natalie Bulger (42:01)
Mm-hmm. The last thing I definitely wanted to hit on, and you know, then we'll see what else we we have coming up for us as we close out. But, you know, you and I have both, it's been over 20 years since, you know, we've lost our our our dads. And I'm sure you like me, I'll just sit in the car and I can't I can't remember his phone number. There's a lot of things I can't remember. Sound of his voice, I don't really have any videos left. there's a lot of things.
But I'll just be like, man, this is when I would call my dad. And then instantly, waterworks come on. And it's like, there is no one else that I want to call other than him. And then I spiral, and just exactly like you said, do like because of the whole thing that surrounded his life at that time, I'm like, I don't even know. I don't even want to think about what he would be like now because that whole situation was so nasty. And you know, and it gets then really ugly and dark. And so the whole idea of having being able to feel those nostalgic feelings or those desires without then allowing the spiral to almost rob yourself of what that's like. I mean, not just from who you've worked with, but even yourself. what are some tips we can have, especially for those of us that it's been a really long time? And so our brains have had a lot of chance to like, as you said, like I'm my dad was 53. I'm 41 now, and I'm like, he was really young. And I have new forgiveness for him for some of the stuff he did because I'm realizing the mistakes I still make in life. and you know, there's this new complicated understanding of them.
Caroline Degnan (43:35)
I don't think the spiral is necessarily bad or wrong. So it's it's not that we want to stop the spiral, but it's to be I think it's kind be kind to yourself when the spiral happens and that like it's actually valid. So like let's say like when you're feeling all these things about like the situation with your dad, that's all there. And like perhaps like you need to feel it in that moment of I'm really pissed off about this, how this happened. Or over time, like you learn certain things. we put these people up on pedestals too. So like when somebody dies, like brrr, you know. But as you become an adult, you learn different things about different aspects. And it's just like they were people too. But it's really important to feel the uncomfortable things about them.
It's it's not taking away from their memory if you feel that about them. It's not taking away the love that you feel for them, felt for them if you think about those things. I think it actually makes it more valid and more secure when you're thinking about that person as a whole. And as whole people, we make mistakes. As whole people, we are fallible in so many ways. And so it's being honest with yourself is such, I think, such an important part of the grief process to be like, yeah, like I'm really pissed off about that. And that was really messed up. And especially in terms of how so the means by which someone dies is very, very important in the grief process. So let's say that someone chooses suicide. That is a very complicated brief process to go through of there's a lot of anger there. There's a lot of confusion. There's a lot of unanswered questions some of the time. in those are all really important to feel that it doesn't take away from like what you feel about the person. But also if it does, that is okay too. Cause you're allowed to have your relationship with that person no matter what. But especially when the relationships were complicated before and or during the death process, it's that stuff just doesn't just go away and you don't have just be like, yeah, this person was a great person and their per like their life was lovely and beautiful and the no, that's all it's all real. So being honest with yourself to the extent that it feels good and not plummeting into anger or resentment or confusion that then you become it yourself or project it onto other people
Natalie Bulger (46:25)
it was f as you mentioned that I laughed a little internally because I'm like, we literally put halos and angel wings on people that, you know, give them this pure perfect persona sometimes in our minds. And the reality is we've we're all flawed in some nature. And sure, hindsight's twenty-twenty on a lot of things. And you may choose to remember a lot of those really good, wonderful times. But I think I also you there's a lot of my look back on my dad has also helped me not n I don't want to make the same missteps necessarily that now I I look and you know, I get something in the mail and I go, uh-huh, uh-huh. My dad's intent on trying to be helpful and supportive 20 some years later has now disrupted his kiddo's life because of a very unexpected thing.
And I'm like, okay, I should probably remember that next time that I'm just like, let me overextend myself because I think it's right in that moment, versus, okay, there's still ripples that could be felt for years to come on some of this. what is really best for me and my loved ones? So even in the anger moments that I've had, there's great opportunities to go, okay, uh-huh, uh-huh. Okay, what lesson do I take from this?
Caroline Degnan (47:45)
What do I do with this right now? You know like Yeah. Yeah. It's so it's so interesting to be able to like be the adult looking at the adult them and wanting to be better than them. Not in a judgment place, but in an honest place. And I I say this like it as like most of our parents are are aging and whatnot. And we should all want to be better than them and they should want us to be better than them. Again, not from judgment or not saying that you've done anything wrong or bad, but it's like we are a generation that's much more introspective, that's much more aware of a lot of things that they weren't aware of. So let's use it. let's be different.
And let's like I don't have children and I but I think for people that are raising children too, that's even more so a goal of okay, what do I want for them that maybe I didn't have or I could have held had differently. But I always preface it's not judgment or being mean, it's just awareness and the desire to not have the same pain that we felt or lessen it
Natalie Bulger (49:04)
Yeah. You know, a a reflection even on the connection that was made, being kind of connected with you. I had a moment of, my God, someone gets it. even though very different circumstances under what we went through, there are so and I never realized it at the time that no one else in my high school class of five hundred some people had a parent die Like in how oddly uncomfortably unique that situation was. And to just even have someone that, you know, same thing. I got married a year and a half ago. Same kind of idea. I didn't think I was I didn't think I was gonna get married. I like, I'm not ever gonna have to deal with the a dad-daughter dance thing. But it it is very just you're not alone in the world, and even sometimes that is enough. So some of the resources you mentioned, some of the places you can look to just be reminded that it again, not comparison as you mentioned, but just there are other people who know the weird way that life works after an event. And there's always a before and after, right? It's the before and it's the after. can can give you a little bit of just breathing room for a second that and that you don't have to explain. That I can say something and you kind of just are like, uh-huh. Uh-huh. Even if I don't exactly get it, I kind of get it.
Caroline Degnan (50:23)
like I was at book club on Sunday and I was talking to somebody and I clocked that someone said their mom was. And I immediately clocked the was because you just kind of have that awareness. And so I when not all focus was on us, I was like, like you mentioned was like and I said, did your mom pass away? And she said, Yeah.
And I was like, my dad passed away too for part of that club. And it's just even like that way of saying it that is so nobody expects it per se, because it's and granted, I know I'm I'm a very blunt person and I will go right towards it because that's who I am. But it was just like I am gonna go towards it because I I wanna hear about her mom. Or like she was mentioning her, so like I'm gonna ask. but yeah, it's when you've lost somebody, you don't understand it until you've you're in it. And that's why we call it a club. we make it we joke about it to an extent, but it's so true that until you've experienced the loss, you have no idea what that I keep saying, like kick in the gut feeling is. And you don't want it for other people. And I was so happy for my friends in college when both of their parents came for parent weekend and I acted like yeah, I'll come out to dinner with you. Meanwhile, internally I'm like, just leave me here, please. but it's I've really created a life surrounding grief oddly. And it can sound really morbid, but like honestly, had my dad not died, I wouldn't have the life I have. I wouldn't have the career I have. I I wouldn't be who I am. Do I wish for every second of every day that it hadn't happened?
Yes. I don't want this. I don't want to be so good at this. I don't I don't want to be so comfortable. I want him. but the fact is, he did die and Lauren did die. And like your dad did die. And it's sucks in every sense of the word. But it's it's a beautiful connection when you can make it. But meaning doesn't come from all of the loss either though. Let me just put it that way.
Natalie Bulger (52:40)
final reminder, which is you can love the life that's happened after in the after and still miss them. Yeah.
Caroline Degnan (52:49)
Well in the after. And like I always preface that like I'm a rarity in the fact that like I've made a lot of beauty from this and I'm really proud of that. But that's not the goal of loss.
You don't have to make something of it. Like doesn't have to have some this deep meaning or something beautiful coming from it. Some of it's not. some of it is just awful. But then there are these instances of little glimmers here and there of something beautiful has come of this, but not all the time. So it's just being really kind to yourself of where you are in the moment of it. But it is the most universal experience we all have.
Natalie Bulger (53:27)
Caroline, as we wrap up, and it's been I I think a very calm conversational hour about this. And I think that's really appreciative, right? Because sometimes we can get really into the feelings while we're in it. But if you are in the p general Pittsburgh area, where can they find out more about where you provide services and maybe a couple of tips for what they can look for online? What we already mentioned we'll link experience camps, but some resources for folks.
Caroline Degnan (53:53)
so my practice is called I Am As I Am Counseling. Google us. it's just me and my other provider. you can feel free to I think the my email will be linked here. You're more than welcome to email me. but also if you're looking for a provider, psychology today dot com is one of the best resources I can ever provide for finding a therapist. you can find specialties that you want to like to have in a in your clinician and whatnot, and if make sure that they are with your insurance and all that. but in terms of grief resources around the Pittsburgh area, yes, caring place is wonderful. and then there's other grief groups, usually through like churches that are not necessarily religious based, but they're run through church organizations. But if anyone in the Pittsburgh area needs any other information, please reach out to me and I will I can provide more specifics based on your location and and need for specific grief groups.
Natalie Bulger (55:02)
And it's okay to test a few different ones out because I know you might walk into one and you're like thirty and everyone else is seventy and you're like, not gonna be the one that works. Like it find the one that works best. Don't feel pressured, you know, for some of those. There are more than you might realize, right?
Caroline Degnan (55:19)
And same same goes for therapists too. Like if you work if you're working with therapists and you're like, I don't know about this, try somebody else. Like that's our feelings aren't hurt. Like we want you to be with the provider that's gonna be best for you. So like try a few out
Natalie Bulger (55:35)
Caroline, thank you so much for being here and for just kind of guiding us through a couple of these really great tips, reminder for folks, everything that we mentioned, books that we might have touched on, everything will be in the show notes. Go ahead and take a look at those. reach out to Caroline and her practice if you have any questions. Use psychology today and some of those other pieces. You'll, I think, be really fascinated with what you find. Check out experience camps and make sure to come on back, listen to a new episode when we get around to it. We've got a lot of grief conversations, a lot of mental health conversations. So if this resonated, you'll find more and share it with someone that might need it. because you never know what people might be going through and this might be exactly what they needed in those days. So thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk again soon.