Episode 53 - Season 2
What I Learned in the Year Since I Left My Job
Motivation N'at Podcast
Full Transcript

Natalie Bulger (00:01)

A year ago I left a job that shaped who I was for seven years. Today, my husband Josh is flipping the mic on me to ask what a year of hosting Motivation N'at actually taught me. And everything else that's happened in those three hundred sixty five days. Season two starts now.

 

Natalie Bulger (00:24)

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Motivation N'at. I'm Natalie, your host, and this is where we take Hot Mess to High Potential. And this is episode one of season two. I don't know how we got here, but ironically, this is I think the third attempt Josh and I have had at this exact episode because as technology is not always our friend, we attempted twice in person, it was a little bit of a mess, and now we are still in the same house.

 

But I am upstairs in the podcast room and Josh is actually downstairs in his studio. So, or his studio, I said that because I see your guitar and the or your bass in the background. he's in his home office. So, anyway, for those that don't know, Josh is my husband, and he was the very first guest on Motivation N'at back on episode one and two of season one when we launched this one year ago, which is crazy to think about it being an entire year of this.

 

Episode podcast approach, exploratory, just awesome, humbling experience. And today we're gonna flip the mics. So Josh is gonna interview me for the most part today, which we've of course had a couple trial runs at, but odds are I already have different answers for everything. So this'll be fun. And you'll get to hear a little bit more about Josh and I as well during today's episode. So

 

So glad that you're here. So glad that you made it to season two. And if this is your first time listening, you'll hear a little bit about where we've been and where I'm going with things into the future, I think. So Josh, tell us a little bit about you and how your life has changed in the last year, and then you can start asking all your questions.

 

Josh (02:03)

About me, about me. No, I appreciate that. also yes, glad to be here. I am obviously, I mean, as already mentioned, Natalie's husband. you know, just just the best, you know. I mean I I I I you know, li life just changes all the time for I think both of us, but and I'm sure we'll get into it a little bit, you know, once we get a little bit in depth with the questions. But a lot of a lot of things have changed, so it's amazing. It's a year I I think off the off the bat already sounds like a lot, but man, does it fly by. So but yeah, yeah, no, I mean it's just working all the time, you know, just like everyone else, just like well, definitely nowhere near as much as you. and I think we'll dive into that a little bit here shortly, but yeah, still - Still doing all the things I enjoy, you know, playing music, you know, big gamer. Obviously Natalie made me wear these headphones to show, you know, show the true me, true nerd in me. So but yeah, yeah, that's what that's what's been going on. So if you're okay with it, I'll dive into the first question. And it's kind of a general one, so hit hit I will do that. I will do that. so yeah, you mentioned it's been a year.

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Tons of stuff, you know, since then, tons of tons of guests, lots of topics and whatnot. But you know, for those who don't know the ins and outs of your podcast or or, you know, personal life and whatnot, I guess just kinda you know, similar to to what you asked me, you know, tell us what's been going on. I mean, you know, since the journey began. So

 

Natalie Bulger (03:54)

Yeah, so actually Wednesday of this week. So July first marked one year since I left federal government. and that was a wonderful seven years of learning and just expanding who I was and getting to understand what I did and didn't want to do as I moved forward in the future. And thankfully there was a little bit of a push out the door from a standpoint of being able to take a couple of months. Still get paid by the government with the project or the program that they offered and start to figure out where I was gonna go next. So the podcast was the very first thing that I did, which was fun because it was a chance to just get out of the normal day-to-day healthcare executive feel of things. And I couldn't get away from it for good. That's definitely where I'm still focused, but to be able to take some time to heal and explore what a podcast could look like with what was going on. So past year has been 53, I think, total episodes, because there's been a couple bonus ones in there. 44 different guests, a couple that have returned, lots of different topics. I didn't know where the podcast was going to really go. It started off as a very personal journey, I think, even when you and I talked about like what the year ahead might look like and then A lot of stuff about family, a lot of kind of interpersonal conversations, even some solo things. And then it just took off on its own. People wanted to talk about, I think, kind of uncomfortable topics, but in a safe space. And that's what really launched all of the different engagements that happened from there. I think ironically it led to some really good professional connections too. So being able to do work in the startup space, working in the behavioral health space, doing fractional professional compliance officer duties. And now I'm really kind of excited for what comes ahead, which is I think really my own path in so many ways. so the podcast was a really fun trial run to see how I handled failure in some aspects or what I probably deemed as failure. I have great listeners on here and, you know, you know that 'cause, you know, you listen and you talk to people about it. but it's not viral. It's not a top ten in any way. But it means something to the people who listen. And that I think is the reinforcement I needed that when I go from here, I'm not going back into a federal government, four hundred thousand employee kind of impact job, but it doesn't mean that I can't have really high impact in what I choose to do next, professionally or personally. So a little roundabout way of it's been a little bit of everything, but turning, did I turn 41 this year? Yeah, 41. You know, it's a good chance to have that midlife crisis and really question what happens next and challenge myself in ways that are really difficult, but ultimately I think really enlightening.

 

Josh (07:06)

No, I think I think that's great. And it's it's it's funny you you you had mentioned, you know, once once you decided to transition from from the previous role and everything that you're doing now, I I couldn't help but think, you know, when and this is maybe diving a little deep, but you know, when we're young and we're we jump out into the workforce and everything and it's we get so caught up in what we're doing and what our supposed career is supposed to be that you know, by the time we start thinking about, you know, what do I really want to do? It's, you know, y you realize, you know, you you've kind of been so tangled up into what you have been doing that you you ask yourself, how am I gonna find the time to figure that out? And I think this, you know, past year and and slightly prior has been that moment for you, has been that opportunity.

 

Natalie Bulger (08:03)

Yeah. And I mean, even having some of the folks on that have taken the leap too to talk about how that leap looks different for other people, you know, there's definitely an element of planning and privilege that may come with it, but it's reinforcing and reassuring to know that this is something a lot of people are kind of battling with. Like, do I take it? How does healthcare get paid for? How do I pay the bills if there's a break and things like?

 

Can I market myself enough? And it's a nice community to have at least started to build or become a part of. but it takes a little time to do it.

 

Josh (08:41)

Yeah, yeah, no, it's I mean it's scary, right? I mean that's why you don't see more people just just taking a leap and just I I mean it's risk, right? So yeah, I I think I think the biggest fear is and we've discussed this from time to time, is you know, what if it fails? What if it doesn't work out? You know, a and I think at some point we just have to accept, you know, that all that is unknown because I I don't think that it's the fear of it failing or or not working out or not becoming viral as you said. I think it's just the fact that that outcome is completely unknown. and I I I think that it's something that's said a lot, like on on a on a larger scale, but you know, if you're if you're so you know so focused on what you're trying to do are so focused on the future, like you're gonna forget the present type of type of thing. It's that whole fear of you know the unknown or it possibly not working out is is hindering you from contributing to the success of that outcome. But anyway, that moves on that moves me to my next question. So so since you started would you say at all, you know, has your vision changed since the first episode, since the beginning? You've had a lot of you know, you've had a lot of guests, a lot of you've seen a lot of different perspectives, you've probably seen some things that or or heard some things that have surprised you or made you think a little different. But yes, has your vision changed, do you think, since the beginning?

 

Natalie Bulger (10:28)

a hundred percent. and not that I ever thought that this was gonna be a true kind of solo driven podcast, but before I had built up a roster of guests to invite or, you know, gotten people excited to join, I did some solo episodes that were very focused on my past and my healing journey. And I thought I had probably enough content to do that a lot more.

 

But what I found is that it became much more powerful to listen to other people's journeys and to understand how they were similar or, you know, I what I could take from them as I went along. And so it became more of a focus on listening than it became on, I think, getting stuff out of my system. So sure. I have a couple episodes where I 100% trauma dumped dumped right into the podcast mic, without a doubt. but I think what those did is they allowed reassurance for people to understand that there wasn't going to be judgment in this conversation at all. Like we have been through some crap in life. And if we don't talk about it, if we don't shine a little bit of light onto things, then we never find ways to bring awareness to any of that. And so it's not that every conversation is heavy or complex or controversial. There certainly are ones that are not that we have here.

 

But they're real and they're authentic. And that I think is what is turned into what hot mess to high potential actually means, which is kind of this, I feel a very kind of rolled up, intricate way about something, whether it's mental health or it's my career or it's the changing technology world.

 

And I want to talk about it, I want to share what I know about it, I want to challenge people to think about it differently. And it doesn't mean that we solve it or that we feel healed or completely fixed when it's all said and done, but we have directionality and we know how to discuss that topic maybe a little bit more proactively and in a more communal way. And I think that's the really important piece. So what I found ironically is the first set of like cold outreach I got from people that wanted to join the podcast, and I would write back, and you could tell AI may have had a little bit of you know their pitch or things. And some would send like a list of here's the questions I like to be asked on a podcast, and I would write back and say, Hi, JK, I don't do that. I looked you up, I read this article, I saw this thing, I want to talk about this. I understand it might be uncomfortable. Are you willing?

 

And some of the best conversations with people I didn't know have come out of those that are willing to go, uh-huh, I'll go a step further. Like, I will. Like, you can ask a little, a little tough conversation around that. and I think they've been great for that guest and for me and for the listeners. So that's the shift is that it is taking something that feels so singular in nature, maybe unique to you, unique to a place.

 

And understanding how big that ripple actually looks if we push a little bit to talk about it, whether it be a business that exists here in our town that also exists everywhere if you look for it, or a topic that you think no one understands, but if I maybe get into it a little bit, it'll get conversation moving. So that's the hot mess to high potential journey that I think this year is showed and exactly where year two is taking it.

 

Josh (14:04)

Yeah, yeah, no, that's I mean you I always thought it was interesting when you know people would send their their questions that they want to be asked and it's i it's kind of a weird like spiral of a thought process because y you know, if if someone's sending this this list or or or template of questions, it's I think it's very apparent that they've been on or or presented themselves on other podcasts before other media sources and it kind of makes you ask like are you just giving these questions to to everyone every podcast you do every like and in that sense like what's the point of the podcast? Like it at that point then it's just like a sales pitch of of what you want your optics to be so

 

But I guess and this one is not on my list, but you know, you mention being adverse to that. You know, you don't want to you don't want to do ones with proctored template style questions. And you know what would be if you're digging down a little bit deeper, what would be your intent with that or your purpose?

 

Natalie Bulger (15:25)

So I think as a host, I am someone who likes to find out the unique things about people. So I do do that research. I do scan, you know, searches and I throw someone's name in Chat GPT and I see what it pulls up or, you know, and go to their socials and take a look. And sometimes it actually doesn't show me anything more. sometimes it does. And it's maybe one thing that they put up and I go, my gosh, like that really resonated, or I'll see a post on threads or Twitter that they have put up and that's what I want to dive into. And I think it's a little bit of let me challenge you. Like you are confident enough to reach out and say this is what you want to talk about, but there's probably more to it. And I've been on the prep side of in corporate world they call the murder boards, where you're getting ready to head into a press conference or a testimony. And so they pepper you with every possible question, or at least they think they do.

 

But what they miss is the one thing that kind of stands out that maybe you you didn't latch on to initially. and I think those are sometimes the most interesting conversations to really get into. and I there's one coming up in, you know, in a coup, I think a month or two on season two that was that exact way. I reached out and I said, I I understand you you have a you have a book. You know, I had reached out to them, but they had a list of questions that they kind of used as their promotional thing.

 

And I said, I'd love to talk about this, but can we talk about more than that? And the guy was super open to it. He's like, 100%. Like, we don't have to talk about what's on my list. and it was a really emotional episode to record. and he even said at the end, he goes, You know, I I haven't gotten emotional about this in a while. And I take that as a an a great trait of an interviewer or a host to

 

Pull that out of someone because listeners can hear it. You can hear in a voice when someone kind of chokes up a little bit or not that I want to make people cry all the time, but also when they get like excited about something. And I think you have to get out of a scripted universe in order to have that emotional connection with each other as the people recording, and also to resonate with people who are listening maybe without video, because that's what they're tuning in to kind of grasp.

 

Josh (17:46)

Yeah, no, that's I I mean it's it's it's interesting. The the ones that are completely open to to going outside of their script, I'm sure it's quite a quite a r a feeling of relief and excitement, right? So I I think right then and there you kinda know that it's gonna be a a pretty good a a solid guest, a good experience, in other words. So you get to explore outside of what they have. But on that topic of individuals you know being comfortable or or or being you know resilient to the effects that you know social media and and anything might have on them based on questions that they're asked and answers that they might have. so your pat podcast does explore you know a lot of mental health, a lot of personal growth and and resilience. one of the things I wanted to ask, and this is little bit more of a personal question, more so for whoever's listening, I I I I feel like I know a good bit of this, but what experiences you know kind of shaped those aspects in your life and and what made you kind of want to talk about growth and resilience and mental health with others?

 

Natalie Bulger (19:12)

There is one thing that I think the last year caught me by surprise with, which is I thought I knew what was next on my healing journey. and you know this better than anyone, is that I got thrown for a loop after a couple interviews where they just rocked me or things like came up and surfaced that I hadn't expected. And my therapist, bless her heart, you know, I had been on this maintenance journey for a couple of years with her, like once a month, maybe, you know, doing check-ins. And I have had multiple instances in the last year where I've been like, I need a weekly for a few weeks. Like I am like, there is stuff that I thought I had managed that is now.

 

Shifting to the surface a little bit, specifically the grief episodes that we've done, the intimate partner violence ones that have been on here that just I think have challenged me about where one, how I don't want to say how good I've done with things, but did I see only one perspective of what I thought was like the route ahead for what healing looked like?

 

Did I really recognize all the grief I'd been experiencing in my life and starting to talk about the miscarriage that I had at 18, you know, is something I've not discussed a lot. But doing it here with people that were non judgmental in those conversations and honestly just so gracious in that that they were the first person that that was kind of openly shared with, Jessica and Liz specifically, was a safe place for me too. So it's not that I saw this necessarily as therapy.

 

But the more I got into it, the more I realized how complex that trauma journey has been for me. So between parental trauma, intimate partner violence and trauma, to you know, losing people in my life to suicide, to my dad's death and my mom's mental health conditions, like there are so many layered pieces. And getting to talk to people who have been in their own journeys or their own relationships with similar situations, I think just one makes you feel a little less alone. Also, two challenges you to say, Hey, did I just kind of give myself the checkbox that I did a good job? But I still have a lot of things that maybe I didn't look at. So I think that it it's another one of those humbling moments where

 

I've had to say, okay, I need to, I need to do lighter episodes for a couple weeks. You know, take a deep breath in between things. But the topics are so important to me that it's not that I ever want to shift away from them because and this'll be in season two. Some of them have been, I think, really cathartic for the folks that this is the first time they've shared their story openly or talked about it. And that also being really important for me to be able to offer that space to them. So I've been lucky enough to have that space kind of created here and people willing to be a part of it. And I want to make sure it remains for others because if they listen and they go talk to a friend about one thing that they were encouraged to and that helps them that day, then that means I've done something good.

 

Josh (22:25)

No, I think that's it it's exciting to to see how how your podcasts e evolve, how your episodes, I guess I should say, evolve from not not just over time, but how a single episode from the very start of your conversation evolves you know, say thirty thirty-five minutes later into the conversation and before you know it, you're kind of touching on that hot mess aspect and you're really, really diving into a really high level of vulnerability, not just for you, but for your guests. again, not another question on my list, but you know, you gave me some good ideas there. So we're gonna we're gonna put you on the spot. But how would you I guess how do you approach how do you come well, maybe it's not comfortable, but I'm gonna word it this way anyway. So how do you comfortably approach?

 

Approach each episode you know with the potential from from you, from your point of view, you know, knowing that there might be a level of extreme vulnerability there. And and how would you encourage your guests to do that? Like say that they may be hesitant or scared to jump on a podcast because th you know there's something really deep or really affecting that they want to talk about. So how how would you encourage them, you know, to that that it's okay. Come come on. Let's talk about it. Let's open up. It's it's a safe space.

 

Natalie Bulger (23:57)

Yeah, I'll never push anyone if they're not ready to yet. But what I I thankfully now with fifty some episodes, there's probably one that's similar in the type of maybe person they are or the topic that I can say, listen to this and like just, you know, get a feel for how things flow. I also will never if someone is upset in the middle of something or they feel like

 

Hey, I'm not ready yet, then you hold and we end the recording and we're done. Like it's not the end of the world. And I think this is actually slightly controversial in the podcasting industry, especially in guest ones. I'll always offer a prep call. I I want people to just get a feel for how I approach stuff. And in the instance of, I think it's even next week, Jeremy Carter or the week after, who's coming on to talk about his suicide ex attempt experience.

 

We chatted for, you know, a solid 20 minutes just in a prep call. And I just I shared with him, I said, look, you know, this is why this is important. And, you know, I really just understand how hard this can be to share some of these things openly. And I think it created a non-judgmental space that, you know, hopefully he trusted. And I think people will see that when we talk. But during the episode itself, I think it's important that I don't like try to buckle down and just be an a non-emotional thing interviewing people. I get just as reactive and excited and emotional. And I've cried on episodes a hundred and I don't even know why sometimes I'm like, I don't know why I'm emotional about this. Like it's like it's an empath moment. You can kind of feel it from people. and I think it just shows that this is not meant to be perfect. I rarely edit significantly in episodes I unless someone really wants to remove something or there's been a disruption. The conversation is the beauty of the whole thing. And the feelings that are evoked in that moment are the beauty of what's happening. And there are ones that go somewhere I never even expected. Or like the intimate partner one, I I keep going back to it because I felt challenged. I literally sat there and was like, wow, I this is not how I have handled these friendships in the past.

 

Like I have been the person that's like, I'm not dealing with this anymore. Get on out of here. And it was a moment of going, did I do the right thing? But in working through that with Sarah on the episodes, it was this don't beat yourself up. Like you don't know what you don't know. Now you do, which is the whole point of this conversation. If we don't talk about it, you don't know. And then you don't, you can't change any effort in your life going forward. so I think just approaching things with

 

Out expectations of how you think it'll be and simply trusting and making sure your relationship with that interaction feels safe, most first and foremost. And I always send a list of six to seven questions out and a little bit of topic info to the guests ahead of time. So it's not scripted, but I want them to know the general premise of the things I want to hit on so that they can veto anything or they can say, You missed this. Can you add it in? but the conversation itself is very organic in how it flows. And I think that helps too. I don't make them watch a clock, I don't time them on anything, like I handle all of that in the back end and I think that's really helpful.

 

Josh (27:19)

Yeah, no, I think e even from the the third person perspective, it's it's it's sh for me, I mean just just watching, you know, your episodes and seeing how comfortable the guests are on there, I'm sure. or I bet that, you know, sending them those little bit of lists and having a sufficient amount of correspondence before jumping into the podcast, is really it's really comforting, I'm sure, showing that level of transparency and versatility. Like it doesn't... it doesn't seem like any podcast you have has to be locked in stone into some specific structure with specific questions. So I know I'm I'm comfortable coming on here. So I mean and it's not just because I'm your husband and I live here. yeah. But so you mentioned mental health a few times there.

 

Natalie Bulger (28:03)

I hope so.

 

Josh (28:16)

and I'm just curious, what sort of mental health related topics do you think kind of keep popping up or keep trending in your in your conversations throughout the episodes?

 

Natalie Bulger (28:28)

Yeah, the bigger one I think is grief and shame and guilt and the intertwinement of all of that, and grief not being always just a loss of a person, but loss of relationships, loss of career, loss of kind of what you thought your future was gonna look like. the shame that can kind of come with your history, your background, your trauma that prevents you from changing and shifting. guilt right along with that in a lot of ways. And we see this even in episodes that are about imposter syndrome. where you know, a lot of people are tying maybe their insecurities back to experiences that they've had or things that they've heard over time. I think that there are threads that kind of run through everything, whether it feels like a discussion about innovation and change that we're having from like a professional nature.

 

It still is this element of how has society influenced you or what are the expectations you have of yourself or others have of you. and I think that it is it there's always an element of trying to remove the bias and the stigma from the conversation or acknowledging when we have it. I can't tell you how many of the episodes with coaches I've gone into where I the first thing I say is I don't understand why people pay coaches. Like for a long time I didn't.

 

And then I'm like, well, it makes sense in sports, but your is your brain really like a muscle that you need a coach for? Like it seems very different from that environment standard, but that's the whole point of challenging myself to understand not everyone's like me. Like maybe I don't need a coach in one thing, but maybe I do when it comes to some other stuff. I just don't understand what's out there, or I don't understand what the need arises.

 

So I think that it it's also again a way of when you're in the right space saying, hey, the way you have always been is also maybe not the right way. We say that about organizations all the time, like just cause you've always done it this way. And it's like, okay, as a human, just because you've always done it this way. and that being I think a really strong element of everything is

 

Listening to the stories, doing it without judgment, doing it without an element of, I feel so like icky because I went through the same thing, or maybe I didn't heal the same way, and just listening to listen and listening with curiosity and exploration as the number one goal, which is really hard to do sometimes. but that being where I hope some of these like harder topic areas Have challenged people to anchor themselves a little bit more.

 

Josh (31:15)

No, I think that's and you you mentioned you know, the coaches and and whatnot. And I I it's funny 'cause I was thinking about some of the things I I it seems a little I don't know, it kinda takes like the art out of it. It it it it just it's like y I I'm trying to see like the perspective or put yourself in the shoes of someone who who thinks that they need a coach or that they should get a coach. And at the end of the day, I I mean, coach or not, like you're you know the questions you wanna ask. You you know what you want to talk about, you know what you wanna hear. So what do you need a coach for? I'm trying to think like two so video games and music.

 

Two of my biggest things, right? So if I'm if I'm trying something, I don't want to make this in the most basic and general terms with because nobody's gonna know what I'm talking about. But anytime I try something, something new, like a new character or something on a video game, my very first reaction is I'm gonna go look at guides, I'm gonna find videos and blah, blah, blah, blah. Everything that should show me how I should be playing something when ultimately every single time at the end of it, I'm just gonna do it how I want to do because the whole point of it is to enjoy it, to have fun, to get fulfillment out of it. and very similar with music. Like you have this music theory, you have like all these things that that that some people see them as like locking you into like such a rigid thing or some like like you said, like a coach, like telling you how you should do something. At the end of the day, it it's gonna be most enjoyable for you, your guest, and your audience, if if you know, you're just doing it how you want to do it. You're you're you're asking the questions you want to ask and and people are talking about the things they want to be heard. They want to to get off their chest in other words. So

 

Natalie Bulger (33:26)

So, what I will say though is the stigma they or the bias that I've been able to unlearn from the coach's conversation is that you need them when you can't see the forest for the trees anymore, right? So I'm I take it back to sports. I'm swinging the bat, it feels great, I'm never hitting the ball. And I think I can figure it out. I'm gonna watch the videos, I'm gonna do all the things, I'm gonna modify. And the coach comes up and they go, It's cause you have the wrong shoes on.

 

Because they can see the whole picture or they can see what you can't see because you're so kind of personalized, you know, biased from looking inside out. And I think that in a career world or in a business world, we get so locked into how we feel comfortable doing things that it does sometimes take someone that ironically we've paid to literally tell us hey, you are neglecting to see this whole component over here. And I think of like if when you were talking about music, and I think to you, like you you loved the bass. You played the bass all the time and you didn't need a coach, but what if a manager had come into the band and said, Josh, you're really good. have you ever thought about playing drums? Like you figured that out on your own, but a lot of people may not have and they would need someone to tell them like there you've got skill that can actually take you to another place.

 

Like try it out, give it a go. And you know, so that I think being the difference of coaching has been weaponized into this. I tell you what to do when you do it. And if you fail, it's on you, versus what I think people think of as mentorship, which isn't indeed actually more coaching, of let me make these recommendations, help you put a plan into place, encourage you when you need it.

 

And you know, ensure that you know that outcome that you're kind of looking for in the end. So, all that to say, there are bad coaches out there when it comes to all of this stuff. There are bad teachers, there are bad, you know, influencers, all of that. But I think if you find the right thing and your only gut reaction is, I don't want to pay you, that might be the challenge to think of for yourself. And I only say that because in this business kind of engagement I've been in over this last year, I finally broke down this.

 

Just a couple weeks ago. And I said, I'm gonna pay a brand person to rebrand my business. And it has been the most emotional, beautiful thing that I've ever kind of started going through. And I'm like, it does take someone that knows this better than me in the YouTube videos and the AI to actually see what I couldn't even see about myself in that instance. So not a coach, but an expert in their area and I think bringing on those weird experts in some ways, and I say weird as a term of endearment, things I've never thought about into this podcast space to talk about, what does that actually mean? has been beautifully eye-opening because I'm like, there's a lot out there. I had never realized that there was so much more beyond my little tiny, like whole you know, ecosystem of healthcare. Like, whew, it's so much bigger than that.

 

Josh (36:35)

No, it's it's there de there are definitely some very specific, very niche fields out there that you didn't know you know, there there were experts in. but there are and and no, I I I agree. I think you know, just getting that fresh set of eyes, like you said, someone's just telling you you're wearing the wrong shoes. You know? definitely changes your whole perspective. I just had an experience like that the other day you know, playing music and it's funny you get so I don't want to say complacent, but that you know it's kind of tunnel vision where you you you eventually narrow yourself into something and you're like, I'm the expert now type of thing. You know, and then when someone else throws a different perspective at you, that's another like really v uncomfortable moment or vulner vulnerable moment because it's a process for you, I know for me, where you have to make a decision in your mind. You have to

 

Natalie Bulger (37:16)

Ha ha ha.

 

Josh (37:33)

Say, do I push this idea or this suggestion away, or do I accept it and learn from it? And maybe there's something I can I can take from this and improve and use as growth. but anyway, I want to get into a couple more fun questions, a little bit more personal life-related questions. So so at the beginning of the podcast, you had, well, we both had a lot of things going on such as you'd already mentioned leaving your previous job we bought a new house we got married all your work with the small town cat rescue and last but not least my stalker I'm sure there'll be a lot more talks and discussion around that upcoming but how have things changed or progressed for you in that aspect.

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Natalie Bulger (38:34)

I think that I've had ability to just, I don't know, enjoy things around us a lot more because I'm not just trapped to a desk ten hours a day and back-to-back phone calls constantly. And being able to relearn how to engage with a lot of things. So I've learned my limits far more than I think before when you are constantly I don't want to say tethered to your job and it's one singular thing that takes all of your energy. And I was on the road a lot. Like I didn't really know what my limits were in the cat rescue world. I didn't know you know, when was the the time to just kind of put my foot down on some stuff or not? And now I I can be a little bit more sensitive to that, and I think that's been good. I think that, you know, you and I have been able to really navigate a lot of tough situations just overall. I mean, we've had a house you know, issue with water coming into, you know, our family room and our house has been torn up for a couple months. you mentioned the stalker that we definitely you're on the hook for an episode on that. just because it it's a beautiful tangent from the intimate partner violence where we started talking about like the impact of men, you know, on men that are targeted by women, which isn't discussed as nearly as much that I think was hard because it there's nothing I could do. We had done everything we possibly could in that situation, and to just watch that strain continue to happen to you. and then you know, across the board to us and our friendships and our relationships, because people don't like talking about that stuff. You know, they're just like, get over it. and god, I wish we we could have that easily, in a lot of ways. but I think that also led to being so ready to leave the job was I had a home, I had a partner, I had like just a a village around me that was so wonderful. And that's why, you know, I do acknowledge the privilege in some of that. You know, I had basically a three-month severance equivalent when I left. And to be able to do that and to take a fresh set of eyes on what burnout looks like. And I have. In the last year, I've still burned out twice. Like I've had little mini rounds where I went to bed at eight o'clock on Thursday and got out of bed Sunday. but then it's an easy chance to look back and go, what happened? Like, why, why did that occur? and to I think reinforce to myself what I don't want to do going forward in a lot of ways. So yeah, I've been back like in a regular ish part time temp thing. It's not the future. I love being reconnected with people in that aspect, but I'm like, no, I I never want to run a hospital. That is not my end goal ever in life at this point, even though I know I could. I wanna change lives in a very different way. and having you supportive during that when you have no idea what it looks like sometimes

 

And I'm speaking a different language, and you know, it's all over the place. I think has been really great. And my friendships, I think, have also really benefited from this whole journey over the last year. moving away from Pittsburgh, even though I'm only an hour and a half away now, like removed me some from some of my friends. But I also had no time in life for that last year that I was working at the VA because I was constantly gone.

 

When I was home, I wanted to be with you. When I was on the road every other week, I was on the road. And so now there's like space to at least recognize what adult friendships kind of look like and how they interact. And I think that has been really beautiful too. And it's not all been roses by any means. There have definitely been some really hard moments. but to your point, when you mentioned risk earlier, out of all of this, all that stuff, even though it sounds tumultuous Created an environment for me to be able to willing to be willing to take more risk. And I think that is also really unique and important to recognize.

 

Josh (42:53)

Yeah, and I think it's I think it's much easier to to take those risks and accept them, I guess, when when you realize like everything is a risk. Literally everything. Because think about how much like people mention looking in hindsight and whatnot. You kind of touched on i i in a way, you kinda touched on knowing what you want to do by first knowing what you did not want to do. And the only way to find out what you don't want to do and learn what you what actually gives you that level of fulfillment, I think, is to take those risks. Because I think we get so caught up in what we've, you know, you know, routine, habit. If if you're in a job or you're in a career, in a field for five, I mean for me, sometimes the max five, sometimes 10, 15 years, whatever it may be, it's hard to see anything outside of that. and and it's I don't think those sort of environments, especially in in the workforce, I don't think you're gonna get a lot of individuals, and this is kind of coupling that like coaching perspective or that fresh set of eyes, I don't think you're gonna get a lot of individuals

 

That will come in or come up to you and and suggest or or even talk about doing something else. Because they're in the same boat. They're in the same boat, the same routine, the same habit. Like, you know, you get in a discussion. It's about work. You know, it's not about, well, what else is there? Like we're all on this island with a giant wall around it. You can't see what's elsewhere. So but you mentioned

 

So, you know, you you first lived near Pittsburgh in a much more densely populated area. You know, your friends were all around and whatnot. but I did kind of want to touch on that a little bit. So you moved to a very small town, you know, Indiana PA well, compared to where you were. i i you know, there's a lot of smaller towns just outside of us. But s you know, in that process you moved here, you moved to Indiana, small town. I think max there's like and correct me if I'm wrong, maybe twelve thousand people when school's in, it doubles, something like that. so you've become very heavily involved in in all things, you know, pertaining to the community and even established your role and your involvement in that. I mean, how how has that been for you?

 

Natalie Bulger (45:46)

You know, it's it's been a it's been an interesting journey. I mean, first and foremost was the involvement in small town cat rescue. who Erica have already told her I was gonna give her a a tattle on this episode that she has to come on and talk about the what really animal rescue looks like in rural settings because it is it's insane. and it is trying and it is tense and they rely on donations and volunteers and and it's wild. But through that,

 

Because there's so many people involved in that, that made other connections with some other folks in the area, which then I think especially in the last few months really started to build. And one of the themes on the pod this second half of the year was won't you be my neighbor kind of feel tapping into Mr. Rogers. because I got my headshots done by a local photographer who mentioned you should have TJ from the commonplace coffee shop on who you also knew, so you introduced me you know, through that. Then because I had TJ on, that gave me some credibility to ask some other people. And then it just becomes this like role of individuals that know each other. And I've started thinking about the businesses I go to. And I'm like, all right, Gabby from Bella, I'm gonna have her on to talk about what it's like to own a s a local kind of focused salon in an area. And those things all exist in other communities. So it was a challenge for me, I hate to say I liked being a very small pebble in a large pond in Pittsburgh because even in healthcare and people knew each other, you could go out and not see everyone you knew on a regular basis. Here is not the same case. We go in the grocery store, we know five people within the first three aisles we walk down, you know. And so I had to get comfortable with letting people in my community know who I was, which is actually really challenging for me because.

 

I like to have my professional self. I like to have my personal world that, you know, only my close friends and maybe a neighbor or two know. And thankfully, I think I've been challenged to let that down a little bit. I found spots that aren't the right fit for me. I talked with Gari about this on the podcast that we do on the side where I went into like a professional networking setting and I went, my God, I hate every moment of this. And it wasn't a reflection on them, it just wasn't the right fit for me. But then being able to craft kind of a separate engaged group of folks that you know I can reach out to and say, hey, what are you doing? And getting really excited about, my God, I might have a friend in the neighborhood now. but I don't know what again, I that's all kind of the beauty of what the future looks like of what does a new friendship at 41 look like with someone when you're both tired by eight PM at night because they've got kids or you've had, you know, a lot of stuff going on in your day. And I think it's also just a wonderfully unique

 

Community here. It is not to be political, but a blue dot in a red, red county. It has a university, it has a healthcare system, it, you know, but it's still such a small town feel. We go to the local butcher, we go to the local farm stand, you know, to buy our food and things like that. so it's a really nice blend. And I think that if it ever, I was admittedly surprised that I had any desire to move out here when we met.

 

But now that I have, I'm like, it's not that bad. I kind of like it. and it's really grown on me. And and people reflect that that have been in the same position. They're like, yeah, you when you're, you know, 18, you think of it as the party place surrounded by farm fields because of the university that's here. And you know, you walk a mile down and there's a farm. But it really is a really nicely established small town community and the home of Jimmy Stewart. So

 

it's a wonderful life right here in this community. and it really is. It it embodies that.

 

Josh (49:40)

No, it's it really is. It it's funny how you know, anytime you move something you know, somewhere or or you move into a new house or something, everyone always says, you know, get to know your neighbors, get to know your neighbors. And usually I'm I don't do that. 'cause it's kind of for me it's I'm most of the time introverted, but extroverted when I need to be. And I just want, I just want people to stay out of my business. but no, like you you know, you you mentioned when you're out, you're going to the grocery store, you're doing this, you're doing that. you know, you see three, four, or five people you know. And in a way, it it it feels like if I mean it's it's a team, as a sense of community. Like if like I can confidently say, and I'm sure you could too, like if there's some sort of activity involvement or business I want to start or something like that. there are people in the community that I can go to that not only would be able to help you from like a knowledge perspective, like teach you this, teach you that, maybe even help support or guide you in the right direction, or even just give you words of encouragement. And it's it's funny, the first the first few years after college, you know, I I spent, You know, I went to California, I went to Texas, I went to Washington State a little bit, Virginia, blah, blah, blah. but it took me years, probably four or five years to realize that that whole sense of small community belonging, like all that support, it was just the one thing that was missing the whole time. And I wasn't gonna get that anywhere. sure. You could find it probably anywhere you go. I'm sure it would take some time to establish, but everybody's got, you know, the community they like. So so I have another personal question, more of a time management one. but you've done a ton of stuff since the podcast started. It's it's funny i you know, when you were in your previous role you were busy all the time. Like there was, you know, from the start of the day and then sometimes nine at night, you're hopping back online, you're doing something, and I'm like, what do you what what's going on? Like it's that work should be done for the day. and it's funny now that that was one role, one one thing that that occupied your time. Now you have six or seven different things. And yes, you are still busy, still pretty busy.

 

And I think You know, it's safe to say you're someone who likes to stay busy, but I still think you have a little bit more free time, a little bit more control over your time, a little bit more management. But with that being said, you know, all the jobs, all the roles that you've been staying busy with, how have you managed to find a balance like in your personal life, activities, hobbies, and even your marriage?

 

Natalie Bulger (52:55)

I expect a lot less of myself from a professional standpoint. And I don't mean that in a sense of my quality of work has gone down. I mean it in a sense of we're human. And a lot of times I have just had to say, you know what, I don't feel good today, and that's not gonna happen today, or I'm not gonna go in for that, or can we reschedule this meeting? The podcast has been a really good opportunity for that because you know, I've learned, hey, everyone else has lives too, and things come up and you have to be ready to shift.

 

I think the beauty of some of the work I do now, a lot of it can be done at any point in time. So it's not being filled with meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting. I work with people on the West Coast. I have a couple of folks that are international. So it makes sense to work at 8 p.m. at night, you know, when there's not you have bad practice and I'm, you know, kind of upstairs, you know, seeing, all right, well, what am I gonna do now? Or I'll edit the podcast now, or I'll do this. And so I can work in burst. And as someone with ADHD who can very much hyper focus in an instant, and you've seen me do this, working in burst almost sometimes becomes much more productive in a sense. So working for one of my engagements for an hour or two, taking a break, flipping to the next engagement for an hour or two, taking a break. And so it allows me to still fulfill this desire to click the box of I did some stuff without feeling like it's never ending. And I think that's really important. The the work at the the VA, which again loved the mission, it just felt never ending. It was like a revolving door of I had this conversation 15 times. Why are we still having it? and I think it also makes it easier as much as it's been hard for me to learn how to do when you say, hey, let's go do this real quick. And I'm like, huh? You know, okay, like I'll be at a stopping point in 15 minutes. I can get up, we can go, you know, run a quick errand, or we can go for a walk, or, you know, we can make lunch or have coffee in the morning. And so it's allowed flexibility. And if there is one professional love language that I have, it is flexibility. Whether it is to work remotely, to work on my own set hours, trust me to get the work done. I will get the work done.

 

And if I won't, I will tell you. And I've only had one instance where I got overwhelmed and I didn't feel good and I didn't communicate right off the bat. And thank God I work with amazing people. And the my, you know, the contractor I was working with, she said, just text me. you know, just let me know. Just have Josh send me a message, like it's okay. and so reminding myself not to shut down when I do hit that point and just to be open and honest with folks, I think goes a long way. And so people know what they're getting when they work with me and I'm very upfront about that. And I think that that is made for some really good professional relationships.

 

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