INTRO - Natalie Bulger (00:02)

We spent our 20s and 30s following the path we were told to follow. Hustle hard, climb fast, prove yourself. College certifications, titles, and the success and stability will follow. And then life happened. For some it was kids, others, COVID, a layoff, or just a shift in everything we thought to find us. Samantha Swan and I have watched each other's journeys for the last 10 years. And for this episode, we sat down and talked about what comes after you realize the rules just don't quite fit anymore.

 

Natalie Bulger (00:39)

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Motivation N'at. I'm Natalie, your host, and this is where we take hot mess to high potential. Today's episode has been a little while in the making, but that is how some of the best ones end up being, especially when they're with someone that you've known for a really long period of time. And Samantha and I go back to the beginning of our healthcare careers, I think, when we first were introduced through a set of professional organizations. We'll talk about that in a minute, but I want to make sure that people know who my guest is and it is Samantha Swan. You'll hear me say Sam, because we've known each other for so long and Sam is the senior manager in strategic planning in the healthcare world. We're going to try to not use too much acronyms or things as we go because today's conversation isn't necessarily about healthcare today. It's about us as people and our generation and doing all of these things like trying to actually balance and live life with families and kids and careers and all of that goodness. So Sam, without further ado, I'd love for you to introduce yourself to the listeners a little bit. Who are you? What is important to know about you as we kind of launch into today's chat?

 

Samantha Swan (01:52)

Absolutely. Thank you, Natalie, for having me here today. I guess I'll start. I've worked in the healthcare industry for over a decade at this point. I definitely had more of a zigzag career working in different sectors of healthcare. So in the short amount of time that I've been in healthcare, I feel like I've had so many different experiences straight out of grad school, which I think is when we initially met, Natalie. And I spent my 20s really working myself up the career ladder, putting myself out there and really growing my breadth and depth of experience when it came to healthcare. And I'm really proud of that journey that I've been on. But as I entered my 30s, I got married, settled down in the suburbs outside of the city. My shift really changed the moment I decided that we were ready to expand our family. Also just going through that whole period of COVID, of isolation and really being able to sit with your thoughts, that really shifted our perspective on just what's really important in life. And that shift really became a reality when we first had our first child at the tail end of COVID. I had a son in 2022 and then I also welcomed our daughter in the end of 2024. So right now I have a four year old and a one year old. There really was a really big shift on how I prioritize my time, but also not losing that sense of who I am as a person, what are my career ambitions, and how it's been received in the workforce, especially in the healthcare industry, has been quite a journey itself. I definitely had some really high highs with the village that I've created for myself, both at work as well as in my personal life. And at some points it was also a challenge to figure out where do I fit in this world now that my focus is not just growing my career and growing my professional experiences. And I know this is something that has been a common theme in conversations that I've had with a lot of my peers and my friends who are in a similar stage of life of just, how do you figure out how to do it all? Can you do it all? And what does that mean for where you go next in your career and just life in general?

 

Natalie Bulger (04:08)

Yeah, and it's such a topic that no one has strong answers to, right? And the longer the folks like you and I are finding ourselves in this position, I feel like the discussion is getting more tangible. It's like, all right, we're done talking. We actually want to do something about what this means. And you mentioned we met right when you were getting out of grad school. I was not that much further in front, through a professional organization for healthcare leaders. And Sam and I both ended up actually as presidents of that local chapter. So we ran a board, we were there, and I drug Sam kicking and screaming, I think, through that. But I mean, those were late night meetings, you were sitting on committees, you were putting events on, plus you were working your job, plus you were having relationships, plus we're buying houses, we're doing all these things. And we were raised to really think, okay, well, this is success. You go to school, you go to grad school if you really want to go the next step, you get the good job, you invest in the education and the networks that you're in. And then I think we all turned about anywhere from 32 to 37 and we went, is this burnout? Like burning the candle so hard at both ends. And I don't have kids. So then you add that layer in. So tell me the first kind of feeling where you were in that moment of, hey, we've been kind of told from the start, here's what you should do, here's the path you should follow. When did you realize you were maybe following someone else's rules, or maybe this might not be all it was cracked up to be when they pitched it to me?

 

Samantha Swan (05:45)

Yeah, I think that's so true. I feel like school and your education and just the culture of being in college or university and graduate programs, you're trained to think like you follow this direct path. This is what you do. First in, last out in the office. And it's just like you work hard, you see the results, and that's what you're supposed to do to really grind and move up and be successful in your career. No one prepares you for when you have these other things outside of your life of work. And how are you supposed to do it all? Can you do it all? And how do you break some of that old school mentality? I mean, I hate to say it sometimes, but women in the workforce are sometimes expected to seem like they're taking a step back the second they have kids. And that's not how it is nowadays. There's a lot of women who want to work. I think it really hit me probably about six months in after having my son. I took 12 weeks of maternity leave and returned back to work a little after three months. And after three months of being back in the workforce, trying to do it all, balancing child care, figuring out how to function on three hours of broken sleep every night, I just sort of broke and was like, this is not sustainable. I need to figure out how to prioritize and better optimize how I'm living my day-to-day life, which is really ironic because that's what I do in my role as a strategic planner — figuring out what is our team's priorities, what do we have the bandwidth and capacity to do, and how do we then optimize what we're doing with the limited number of resources and hours in the day that we have. It was almost like taking that model and looking at myself and thinking, how do I do that in my personal life too? And learning how to say no and setting those boundaries I think are really important. But also I think it was also important to let people know on your team, especially your leaders, of like, hey, this is where I'm at in life, but that doesn't change my ambitions. It's just I'm better prioritizing where I direct my ambitions to still meet those overall goals. It definitely is an evolution and there's a lot of moving factors of who are the people on your team, who are your supporters and who do you really need to convince, to get to see your perspective — just because your roles outside of work have changed, that's not a change in how you approach your job or your career. And it changes so day to day as the kids change every day too and your needs evolve as they get older and you introduce another one. It's sort of like stepping back to square one but now you have two of them and you're balancing all of that at the same time.

 

Natalie Bulger (08:40)

Yeah, and you mentioned all of this coinciding for you during COVID on top of it, which ironically was showing us just how differently we could all work in some ways and still be successful, or maybe even in different ways successful. What's defining what success is for us now? And I think we're now in that state of everyone trying to go back to pre-COVID life in a way, right? And there's a whole group of us kicking and screaming going, why do we need to do that? Like, we showed you that work can be done sporadically throughout a day. We showed you we can work remotely, pick our kid up when they're sick from school, get them somewhere stable and come back to work and still be focused. And so all of these old hard and fast rules — before there was innovation in our spaces — feel like folks can't let them go. What were some of the things that just didn't make sense anymore for you?

 

Samantha Swan (09:53)

Yeah, I think the things that didn't make sense to me — and I'm really fortunate to work in companies that also had the same understanding — was that you have to have your butt in a seat from nine until five every single day, and there's no taking breaks to go multitask and pick up your kid. I feel like that was the culture before COVID. I think there are still some organizations and teams where COVID allowed them to see that you can have flexibility, and your team is willing to flex around certain needs, whether you have to go pick up your kid, and then you're making up those hours somewhere else within the day or logging on early to get the work done. There's a level of trust and understanding that this will get done by X deadline and that person will make it happen no matter what, and that's how they adjust and flex their lifestyle in order to fit that particular deadline. I think COVID has really allowed a lot of leaders to have more of that flexibility when they build that trust with their teams. But I think it does vary based on the leader and the team that you're supporting. I do have to give a lot of credit to all those parents out there that had kids during COVID, were pregnant at a time when you were in the office five days a week, because I don't know how I would have managed that. I had both pregnancies at home in my sweatpants the entire time. And I don't know how all those women managed to go in the office five days a week and go through the whole postpartum period there. So I think that has been such a positive shift because a lot of places have seen the value of having that level of flexibility. This return back to office mentality — I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how that may move the needle back the other way. I'm really fortunate to be in a role that is fully remote and having that level of flexibility. But I think it's also true that there are a lot of benefits to having that in-person connection because motherhood can also be very isolating. So those roles that are being forced in-person to some extent, I think there's also some added benefit to that, merged with the level of flexibility that some employers are giving.

 

Natalie Bulger (12:41)

Yeah, and this is always part of a really controversial conversation, right? Which is, okay, well, men don't take maternity leave. And so they'll be in the office 12 months at a time other than vacation, and you don't have to plan around a maternity leave. But so much of that is changing — paternity leave becoming more consistent, mom takes three months, dad takes three months, something along those lines. But there's also a point that it's not really cost effective for most people to have one income in the household and have one of the parents stay home consistently. And so you have all these budgeting decisions. I haven't had to make them since we made the decision not to have kiddos, but it's that dual pressure of I want to have kids, I want to have this family, we can't do it on one income. So we have to have two incomes. It'd be great to be recognized for the skill and talent I bring to the table, which might be as a leader, but then the leader might have more critique or push to get back into the office more quickly after something like that. So what were some of the things that you and your husband talked about when you were making decision one and decision two, and some of the trade-offs that you actually found yourself facing that not everyone may understand?

 

Samantha Swan (14:01)

Yeah, so it was always in the cards for me that I wanted to continue to work, not only because it was a means to an end because we needed the dual incomes to support the lifestyle that we've sustained, but it was also something that — I spent so many years in school and building my career earlier in my life that it's something that's my pride and joy and gives me that sense of accomplishment that I want to continue to grow and foster, and also set the example for my children as well. Mom and dad can both work, and mom can be just as successful or even more successful than dad in some environments — just having that level of equality. I think where the challenges came when I did decide to work was the response of people when I came back. I mentioned I have leaders that were super supportive and very accommodating of the level of flexibility that I had requested in order to do all of the mom and parenting things while also working. I also felt at times that I was being passed up for opportunities, or even though I presented myself as being available and wanting to take on the challenges at work, they weren't given to me, or my name was never on the short list to be considered because they thought I don't have the bandwidth to handle that based on my personal life. And I think that is such a misconception in the workplace, because if anything, I think parents and moms in particular are coming out to be stronger leaders based on their life experiences because they've learned how to prioritize things. They have learned to figure out the best way to juggle different opportunities at the same time. They have those soft skills of reasoning with a toddler, reasoning in front of a boardroom. Very similar communication styles and strategies that you have to use in order to instill that power and influence both in the boardroom as well as at home as a parent. In a way, I feel like a lot of leaders are missing out by passing on working moms or working parents because they assume we can't handle the additional work. And I think that is something that is still a cultural shift — just because someone is a working parent and is not available at 5 p.m. to meet but can still do the work is definitely a miss in some places.

 

Natalie Bulger (16:34)

Yeah, it makes me wonder — and you and I have both been in that hiring manager seat — if we walked into a scenario and we just said, let's assume everyone's going to have to take an equal amount of time off a year, between vacation, sick time, caregiver time, whatever that might be. If we didn't apply the tag for why they might need time or flexibility and just said, let's assume everyone might need this, you probably have folks now part of your considerations that you were unconsciously not allowing to get in the mix. And I know there were a couple of times where I'd interview someone who was pregnant and it wasn't a bias moment, but I was like, all right, if they're selected, I have to figure out how to work around maternity leave. And HR would be like, don't ever say that. So there's a practicality to it, but that's the whole point of being a leader, right? How often do you have to be agile for a lot of other situations that have nothing to do with parenting?

 

Samantha Swan (17:39)

Absolutely, and I think this is also where you're starting to see a shift. There's no award for how many PTO days you didn't use every year. I am more and more often seeing my leaders saying, use your PTO days, be fully engaged, be engaged in your personal time outside of life. And I'm glad that they're saying that because it almost levels the playing field for the parents who do have to log off at 5 p.m. and are not responding to emails to their bosses at 7, 8 o'clock at night. And it's encouraging people to actually take the mental time off on weekends and evenings instead of grinding and working hard. There shouldn't be that incentive to work harder during times where you are not supposed to be working. That culture of having work-life balance, whether or not you have kids, I think is something that is really important in preventing that burnout that we're now seeing in a lot of people our age when we were grinding 40, 50, 60 hours a week to get to where you needed to go. But now we're seeing a shift of, you don't have to put in those 80 hour work weeks. Granted, I know there are some jobs that require that time commitment. But I think it also helps those who are having different life situations — whether you are a caregiver to a parent, a child, or a pet — that it's okay to take that time and it's okay to figure out a balance that works for you, and not feel like you are taking a step back in your career or missing out on opportunities at work.

 

Natalie Bulger (19:24)

And in a lot of this conversation, folks will probably notice it's spinning around the idea of wanting to have it all, right? You want to be top of your game, best parent, best friend, best spouse, best kid, best everything. And we've been coached — we've got social media in our face basically saying, look, this person somehow has topped the scale of everything and I should be able to do the same thing. But there are elements where, because we have that pressure, when we have a shift in life just like the one you went through, there's a question of what won't I be anymore? It's like leaving a past version of yourself behind and a little grief, probably, for that. But as you've lived it and done one of those shifts, and we both left employers and shifted somewhere else — how do we combat the fear element of going, yes, I want to have this change, I want to do this thing, it may mean I don't have a storybook picture for a few months or a year. How do we get comfortable with that?

 

Samantha Swan (20:34)

Yeah, I think the concept of you can have it all — I think you can have it all, but not necessarily all at one time. So I think there's different eras and phases within your career where you are really thriving and killing it in one area, and then you're letting some areas take a little bit of a step back so that you can thrive in one area, whether that's parenthood or your career or achieving your bucket list dreams of going and traveling the world or whatever. And I think there's just an era that exists for certain moments in your life. But when you look at the bigger picture, hopefully when we're older and we can take a step back, you will probably see that you did have it all. It just happened in different eras. And there was always this analogy that I've heard and I've always told this to my fellow parent friends at work and in personal life — that in parenthood, and other roles too, we're constantly juggling many balls in the air. Some of your balls are glass and some of your balls are plastic. And in different times, you have to figure out which of your priorities are glass, that you just cannot drop, the non-negotiables. And which are those balls that are plastic, that if you were to drop it one week just because you have too many things going on, that will bounce back and you can pick it up and start it all over again. So it's really just identifying which of the balls you're juggling this week are glass and need extra emphasis, and which ones — it's like, you know what, it's okay if you're letting that go for now. And I think that just really exemplifies how even though something happens at a certain time that is beyond your control and changes your circumstances, whether that's having a baby or sending your kid off to college, that time is always temporary and there's always going to be future opportunities for you to go after your dream. It's never too late to go after certain goals in your life. Figuring out the timing is always the challenge, but always doable at certain points. Even though I think sometimes it's hard when you're in the moment where you think you just cannot do it — everything's temporary and everything tends to work itself out. As a very strong type A, sometimes that's hard to think about.

 

Natalie Bulger (22:55)

It sure is. And you know, it's a beautiful premise of sure, have it all, just not overwhelmed at once. Think of eating too much chocolate, right? You come home from Halloween, you've got all the candy, you don't have to eat it all at once — it's all there. And we've also been faced with — and this wasn't on our prep — but it's something that hit us both around the same time, all this other stuff happening where we lost a colleague very early in her career. And I know it impacted both of us in a lot of ways. And so there's this element of life is short, which I think may put pressure on — if there's something that you really want to do and that really means something to you, to not wait until everything feels perfect for it, because it's never really going to be perfect. And that sense of control may never really hit you. When you decided, hey, the time is right to expand the family — were there things where you felt, well, it's not the perfect time, but you know, with COVID happening right in the middle of it, how do you work through that feeling of, now is the right time and we shouldn't keep waiting?

 

Samantha Swan (24:06)

Yeah, and this is probably my strategic planning hat coming on — how do you build out that roadmap? What are the milestones that you'd like to hit so that you have something tangible to work towards? But then when you take off that very strong type A hat, it's how do you prepare for the unexpected? And how does your timeline adjust when the unexpected hits? And there was a time after I had my first child that, while we were thinking about having a second, my role was eliminated at my current company. And that really shifted a lot of priorities for me. This was something that was so integral in my day-to-day life — it almost was my identity at that time, my career, and now it was taken away from me. How does that shift things tactically? How am I supposed to make it through? How am I supposed to find a new job? What does that mean to our timelines? So you have to figure out where to build in that level of flexibility for the unexpected moments, and be okay with change and pivoting whenever you need to pivot. But then also not losing sight of what is your ultimate goal. Because you only have one life to live, and there's only a certain amount of time to accomplish what you want. So again, it comes to balance — figuring out what's really important, but being okay to ebb and flow where needed, while still keeping the end goal in mind.

 

Natalie Bulger (25:40)

And you point out something really critical, right? As much as we plan, there is the unexpected that hits us out of nowhere, and you can't anticipate it all the time. Sure, you can have an exhaustive list of what could happen, but then you're just bogged down by that. You've touched on your strategic planning background — I've got the risk background. So I do want to touch on healthcare for a moment because healthcare is the lovely industry, like many other service functions, that never sleeps. The hospitals are running 24/7. Even insurance is still getting a backlog overnight from the ED sending things in. It's an always-on industry and yet it is staffed and run by humans who can't always be on. If we were to look at ways to deal with an industry facing massive burnout and apply a strategic lens to it, what are ways that we can recognize our current environment and maybe take some tips from other places? Think a little bit differently about supporting this generation of workers coming in and trying to fill positions that have been held for a really long time. What do we need to consider?

 

Samantha Swan (27:03)

Yeah, I think that's a very big cultural change. And I think we're starting to see that when you have more people of our generation succeeding into those higher leadership roles. There is definitely more of an emphasis on having that work-life balance. And quite honestly, I think that is a selling factor for some companies when they're trying to attract new candidates — we can be a high performance team and expect excellence in what we're executing, both from a healthcare perspective. I work in more of a healthcare innovation space, and both of those industries never sleep because everyone's always trying to develop the next new thing and get it out the door. But when it comes to attracting new candidates, a lot of the generation coming in is looking for organizations that promote work-life balance while also promoting the opportunity to excel and exceed within their organizations. And I think that's making leaders really shift their priorities — how do we build in time for our team members to not be sitting in meetings and not be grinding out PowerPoints from when they first log in to when they first log off? I've seen some glimmers of hope when it comes to things like Focus Fridays, where you have dedicated time just to think and create and develop new ways to do things within your particular workspace. I think also in just one-on-one or team conversations, talking about mental health, making that more of a norm — it's okay to not be okay. And here are some resources available if you feel like you need to talk to someone. Leaders being more open to being a listening ear to their team members, whether it's a personal issue or figuring something out. I feel like a long time ago it was, you say X, Y, Z, you don't talk about ABC because that's not appropriate workplace conversation. But I think it's becoming more of an inclusive space where it's okay to talk about when you're not okay, and employers and organizations are providing the resources or normalizing the fact that people are using these resources to get the help they need. And it really adds value when you see your leader care about you as a person, not just the person who produces the widgets or gets the report out every week. It's definitely a culture shift that takes a lot of time, but we are starting to see it little by little.

 

Natalie Bulger (29:56)

Yeah, it makes me think of all the memes and videos you see out there about millennial managers, right? It's 10 o'clock at night and they're like, why are you calling me? Have work-life balance. And yet we're sitting there doing our emails. It's funny because we're told over and over to practice what we preach. And I think it's become very hard for our generation having kind of been on the receiving end of, yeah, you have a phone, you're around, you're reachable — it was a level of comfort at one point that you always had someone you could call on. And now we're telling people, don't call us. Please don't. I can't handle it.

 

Samantha Swan (30:34)

That also stems from more of the grad school or college mentality where it was like a 24/7 job being a student. After class you had projects, you were always on. I remember transitioning from school to work — it was like after five o'clock I'm thinking, now what? It was sort of weird not to have to do homework or go to a networking event or organize something for whatever club or organization you were part of. It was a weird transition. But now I think it's also about — especially becoming a parent — setting your boundaries. Hey, I have to log off at five. I know there's this big meeting and we need to get deliverables in before 8 a.m. on Monday. I'm not available from five until seven. But if you really need me, I can log in after a certain time to finish up whatever presentation. I've done a much better job at saying that. It's not something that becomes a norm that I do on a regular basis, but in a pinch I'm still able to flex because I'm allowed flexibility to do my kids' drop offs in the morning and log on a little later than I normally would. My boundaries are definitely stronger than they were before, but there's wiggle room because it's like — I feel committed to my team members to help them produce whatever product we are committed to producing. That's just my personal work ethic. But I want to be there for the little moments with the kids as well, whether it's making their dinners, doing bath time. Those are my priorities at this point in my life.

 

Natalie Bulger (32:13)

Yeah. I think talking about some of those things, or even talking about where we struggle — if you are a new mom and you're struggling to keep those things in check and you feel like you have to answer everything — having an accountability partner helps. I always laugh that one of the first bosses I had at the VA said he went to countries where he couldn't take his laptop for vacation because he didn't want to work. So if he traveled domestically, he would take his laptop and he would work. And I was like, that feels drastic. And then two years later I was doing it. And on a call today, the attorney called in from his family vacation and I'm like, why are you doing that? So there's an element of even pushing back on each other, being the coach — even if we don't know how it feels — just going, no, no, it's totally reasonable for you to ask for that or to do that. And I think it brings up the wonderful idea of checking in on people. Especially folks who have gone through a transition in life, who are starting a new phase, maybe you do or don't understand it. What were some of the best ways, or ways that you found comforting, that people checked in on you and the family? How do we do that better and be there to support people during the seasons they may be shifting through?

 

Samantha Swan (33:40)

Yeah, and I think this is where some people feel uncomfortable in the workplace. Some people hold back on sharing personal life details. But I think especially in a team setting, it's essential to make yourself vulnerable in the workplace to a certain extent, because I think that allows you to build stronger connections with people that you work with and then you build that sense of trust when it comes to executing a certain project. For checking in, I personally just had a lot of people, even in this remote environment, who were just messaging me, hey, how are you doing? How's the baby? And for someone who has thousands of photos of my kids on my phone, most parents are more than excited to share. It could be as simple as, do you have any new pictures to share of your kids? Just wanting to — even if you can't relate to their struggles — just ask the question. How are you doing? What is new with you and your kids right now? How can I support? As a mom, I also found my mom friends in the workplace. We even started a virtual mom's coffee chat, where we were not talking about work. It was about my kids — when they went through this phase where they didn't want to eat their vegetables, this is what I did, or I'm having a hard time with them sleeping. Just being able to really find your village. I know everyone talks about a village, but finding your village where you can just be truly yourself in the workplace or in your personal life really provides that outlet of making you feel like you're not alone. People are going through the same things that you have, or have gone through the same things. I have coworkers who have grandchildren at this point and they're giving me parent advice when I'm telling them, hey, I slept two hours last night. They would say, I remember that so vividly, sleeping in a chair because my child did not want to go to sleep in her crib. And the reassurance they provide — this will pass and you'll be okay — it's like, okay, there is that light at the end of the tunnel from people who walked that path before you. And I'm now seeing for the people who reached out to me, it definitely encourages me to do the same service to my other colleagues, whether they are going through welcoming a new family member, a new baby, or taking care of an older family member and they have to take a step aside. It's as simple as, how are you doing? It could even be a Teams chat that just allows them to open up. And I think it's just being consistent with those check-ins, because there are times where people just aren't in the mindset to open up. But sometimes those are the people who crave the most support.

 

Natalie Bulger (36:45)

Yeah, definitely an important reminder to realize that everyone's got a unique story, right? And if you don't hear from someone, not to assume why. I know I've had folks where a year and a half goes by and I'm like, oh my gosh, I have not even crossed my mind to shoot a hello. I think when we remove our guilt from those situations, they allow us to get more quickly to the bonding moment. If it's just like, yeah, oh my God, we haven't talked forever, how are things — versus let me apologize for 15 minutes, and then by then you've got to get onto your next thing. That human interaction you've touched on a few times can be, I hate to say, as honest and innocent as anything and still be really, really valuable. So one of the things that I loved about you wanting to talk about this topic was the fact that I literally cannot talk about this topic. I can't talk about planning for a family, what it's like to have to take maternity leave, what it's like to navigate all of that. And I think we hinted at it a little bit, but why is it so important for us to just throw the whole parent versus non-parent in the workforce battle out the window and just understand each other a little bit more? You've been on both sides now. Like, why should I want to make sure that parents are equally represented in the workforce? And why should parents want to make sure that their colleagues that don't have kids aren't overly encumbered with things just over this idea of, well, you don't have kids, you must have time?

 

Samantha Swan (38:32)

Yeah, I mean, I think it all comes down to removing those stigmas of what you do or how you prioritize your time at work. If you are a great leader and a great contributor in the workforce, that's all that should really matter. And even if people have different barriers or challenges or need different accommodations when it comes to scheduling, people who are truly ambitious in the workforce will get the job done and will figure out how to make it work. But if you have teams or leaders that are sidelining those folks who produce good work or are great leaders, you're really missing out on a huge opportunity to continue to elevate and push forward your team's success and progress. And as a parent, this is a big reason for why I want to continue working — because you're proud of your career. You want to have a purpose outside of the home that makes you proud of your accomplishments. And to be sidelined because you have a quote unquote limitation makes you look at your own self-worth and wonder, why don't people see my potential now that I'm a parent? Like I said before, parents are probably the ones who know how to do a lot more with a lot less because they are juggling and reprioritizing and figuring out ways to get things done in a more efficient manner. Not to say that non-parents aren't, but it's recognizing these skills that they gain outside of the workplace really apply to how they can operate in a work setting as well. As for people who don't have children — it all boils down to, this is a person who produces good work. Their ambitions have not changed. It's just how they have redirected their ambitions to achieve their overarching goals. And at the end of the day, people are people. They just want to feel appreciated, feel valued, and that shouldn't change based on your life outside of work and the different circumstances that everybody's in.

 

Natalie Bulger (41:05)

And I've never probably labeled this onto something, so I'm just going to repeat it because I think it's a great takeaway — this idea of limitations. We make a lot of assumptions about people's limitations, limitation on transport, limitation on reading comprehension, limitation on use of technology, and we tag those stigmas to maybe age groups or demographics, or in this case, parents versus non-parents. How many of those are our own internal things that maybe we're self-conscious about, or we think, we wouldn't be able to do it if we were in those shoes? I think it's a great reminder that limitations aren't always actually limitations. They're just what we are considering as holdbacks, and they only apply to maybe us. We shouldn't spread them so much more widely upon everyone else when they may not really be the case.

 

Samantha Swan (42:05)

Yeah, I think it's really looking past those different tags that you give people, whether they're part of XYZ generation, they live in this time zone, they can't do that — those limitations. Once you look past that and you can see the person's ambitions, work ethic, and grit, that truly defines the type of colleague, partner, leader, employee that they can truly be. All those other things — if they have those core ambitions, grit, and motivation, they'll figure it out. They'll figure out a way to work around those limitations or amplify those limitations to really get the job done. Limitations shouldn't mask a person's ambition.

 

Natalie Bulger (42:55)

Well, and it's a good encouragement, I think, even for those who have decision making in organizations, to think about ways that you can make yourself more accessible to any type of quote unquote limitations. So maybe it's someone that only works part time — great. What do you have that's a specialized niche that could benefit from someone that's part time, or benefit from someone that doesn't have to be there, or a special skill set that's just an ad hoc service? It makes me think of the people that fix vacuums, right? You never need them until your vacuum doesn't work, and then you're dying to find a vacuum person. So I think we've tried over a lot of times to fit people into a corporate mold when we could really put a puzzle together in a very different way and it'd still be magical and beautiful. So I've got two closeout questions for you. You've touched on one, so I hope we can just bundle it all together a bit. You are still Sam. You are the same person that I sat down with and we were mashing our heads together figuring out how to recruit more people into the organization. Still bringing all of that to the table. But what are the added benefits and things you've learned that you've now brought from your motherhood journey? When Sam goes into that workforce now and you're in that board meeting, what extra have you learned that you've brought to the table?

 

Samantha Swan (44:17)

Yeah, I think the extra added component that I bring to the table is that I'm more of a person than who you see in the workplace. Early on in my career, that was my identity. That was how I identified myself — when you go to a Thanksgiving dinner, that's what you talk about. What makes you successful and what makes you proud of what you do? Working in healthcare, there's so much to be proud of, the work that you've done to impact so many lives and for so many different organizations. But now my expanded role is — I have all these other accomplishments that I'm extremely proud of. Raising my children, I've established a household. And I think that has really developed a deeper sense of empathy and more of those leadership and soft skills that are so much more applicable to my work life now. My identity has expanded beyond Sam who sits in the conference room leading XYZ meeting. There's so much more that I feel like I bring to the table. And I think over the past few years especially, it's like — what are you the most proud of and what's your purpose in life? It's not just to produce a PowerPoint deck and impress leadership to make a key decision. My most proud accomplishment is my children. This is like, I work to live, not live to work. And those two little human beings have definitely been my most proud accomplishment. I work because I want to show them this is what I can achieve in my life, and also show them all the things I've achieved.

 

Natalie Bulger (46:12)

Yeah, as you were talking I was just thinking about when we get asked for our bios, right? And we send our bio in. For a long time, especially right out of grad school, it's always hard to come up with that last line that's supposed to be about who you are beyond where you graduated from and what your degrees are. Someone always says, add something personal. And that's where you always see, you know, married with three kids, or things like that. And it's a great task for folks to walk away from this conversation with and think about — what are those two lines that go at the end of that bio? Because you're more than just that title and those things you do on a day-to-day basis. And that really tells a story in and of itself. But here's the last one for you. Anytime I have someone on who talks about their kids or impact and things, I love to ask — what's your message for your kids about this? What do you want them to know about the future for them, or what you hope to set up as the environment they're going to be in when they end up in your shoes in 30 years?

 

Samantha Swan (47:17)

Yeah, I mean, I could be a little biased as the internal tiger mom of like, go do this career, be a nurse, be a business executive, be a data scientist. Those are the most successful careers on paper. But honestly, what I hope my kids achieve — what I hope they do in the future — is just be happy, be a good person, and follow what you're truly passionate about, and everything else will come into place. It's nice to have that roadmap that lays out what you're going to do in the next two, three, five, ten years. But there are going to be so many changes in the world that make you pivot. I know I've pivoted so many times in my career. And you have to learn how to be adaptable to those changes. But at your core, if you are kind and you're a good person and you keep working towards your passions and beliefs, everything else will work out. And I hope that's the future we see for our children — just being good, kind people who are great additions to our society.

 

Natalie Bulger (48:21)

Awesome. Well, Sam, I have to ask — if anyone listening is thinking, that was a great conversation and I'd like to have coffee virtually with them one day, how can they get a hold of you? How can they find you out there?

 

Samantha Swan (48:34)

Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. Shoot me a message over there. I love talking to early careerists, mid-careerists, people with more experience than me who can always provide some insight. It's sort of crazy now, talking with you, Natalie — people want to talk to me to get my insight. Because I feel like I was always the one hustling out, saying, give me your wisdom and advice. It's hard to transition to that role. It's like, oh, people really want to get my advice now. But it's sort of wild to think about how, in just a short amount of time, the experiences that I've really added and reflecting back on how they really contributed to overall current growth and personal development — hopefully I can help just be a listening ear to anybody else going through a similar journey.

 

Natalie Bulger (49:04)

Awesome. So if you are interested in talking to Sam, check the show notes. We'll make sure that the link to her LinkedIn is there. Reach out. And again, it doesn't have to be on this topic — anything that has resonated with you today. Our emails, our DMs, all those things are always open, as with most of the guests that have come on here. And Sam, I just want to say thank you for coming on. It is a topic that sits in the background of so many of our minds. Maybe we just focus on the age piece or we just focus on the midlife crisis component, but none of that stuff lives independently. There is so much that influences how we show up and how we engage. And I think you've given us a lot to chew on. Any other last thoughts before we wrap up?

 

Samantha Swan (50:09)

Yeah, I mean, I feel like we can continue this conversation and go into so many more steps of parenthood, mid-career positioning, and all of these things. I appreciate the platform and the opportunity to speak with you. And I'm looking forward to continuing the conversations offline.

 

Natalie Bulger (49:57)

Awesome. Well, thank you for the discussion and taking the time. Thanks to the listeners for tuning in for another episode. Hopefully you heard a little bit about how we took the hot mess of how some of us might be feeling right now and gave you a little strategic direction for how you can take that to high potential going forward. Thanks again for listening. We will talk soon.

​