[00:00] Natalie Bulger

Dr. Sara Ann Todd has spent over two decades inside some of the hardest leadership environments there are. Today, we're breaking down what it means to be confident and what it really looks like to lead when the environment around you is falling apart.

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[00:20]  Natalie Bulger

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Motivation N'at I'm Natalie, your host, and this is where we take hot mess to high potential. Today I'm joined by a fellow former federal colleague, say that five times fast, who just along the same line as me has kind of taken a chance in the current environment to spread wings and explore all that is out there in what we have often called the private sector. And that means kind of everything and everyone and engaging with individuals that could really benefit from our sense of experience and knowledge. And if there's one thing the Fed government did really well, it was help us build skills in different areas. And Dr. Sara Ann Todd has built some amazing skills in the area of coaching, and all of these components of what makes you a better leader. And there's no better topic right now than this. Because let me tell you, we are in a world of leadership whiplash, right? Where it's like, is my leader really stand behind what they're saying? Or can they be motivated by other things? Or what if I want to be a leader, but I don't like the culture or what's happening around me? How do I find the right fit? And we're going to break down some probably misconceptions about what is and isn't coaching, because that's a topic that people are pretty passionate about right now, I think, Sara. So I'm really glad to have you on today. And just get into all of this kind of nitty gritty about vulnerable leadership and authentic leadership. And it's going to be a great discussion, especially for our early mid-careerists or those that are thinking about career pivots. So without further ado, Dr. Sara Ann Todd tell us a little bit about who you are and what leadership investments is and what you're doing with it.

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[02:07]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, well, thank you for having me. Really appreciate you. I love your podcast, so it's an honor to be a guest. Thank you very much. As you said, I'm Sara Ann and I'm the founder and CEO of Leadership Investments, where I really work with healthcare leaders and organizations to kind of focus on strengthening clarity, confidence, and most importantly, alignment, so they could lead more effectively, especially in high pressure environments. My focus is healthcare. You know because my background spans a little over 22 years across the private sector the government as well as the US Army where I served as a combat medic and I also hold a doctorate in healthcare administration. And as you've leaned into the coaching aspect, I'm an associate certified coach. And I'd say what kind of what drives my work is is really simple. I believe that growth should never be left a chance and when leaders grow, that impact reaches the entire system. So kind of that ripple effect and know strong leadership does not stay at the top. It shows up in teams, cultures, and ultimately kind of that quality of care that we focus on within healthcare that people receive and that's really why I'm committed to the work that I do.

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[03:30]  Natalie Bulger

So before we jump into everything, because I want people to really understand that coaching piece that you have behind the scenes. So not only do you have this academic component of having the PhD in healthcare and being in the industry for so long, but the element of then how do you apply all that academic knowledge to helping people and leading people? to what really will be the heart of today's conversation, the alignment and the authenticity. So when we say coach, what does that mean in your world? What kind of things did you have to go to to get that designation to say, yes, I am a certified coach? Because I think it gives a lot more respect for it than we might think kind of off the bat in a world of influencer culture where there's a lot of people that put that tag on themselves, but may not have been through the training you have.

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[04:17]  Sara Ann Todd

Absolutely, and I appreciate that question very much because you're right. And a lot of people, to that same note, I think confuse coaching also with mentorship at times. And so I think to answer your question, what is coaching? Many people could answer that very differently, but as being a ICF certified coach in National Coaching Federation, there are certain ethics that we have to follow. In order to get the certification, you have to do a certain number of hours of education as well as coaching. And then you have to prove yourself through either a shadowed recorded session or an observed session as well as then take that exam. it's just a way to not only, I think, prove yourself. I think you mentioned a little bit about that, to challenge yourself because of the perceptions that we have of kind of what we think something is and what it isn't. To be honest with you, and I feel like I'm going to be long winded here, so I'm sorry. When I first started to become a certified coach, I had some personal conflicts with that of what kind of coaching was and coaching isn't because I had been in that mentor lane, that kind of like fixer lane for so long. being in that coach seat is completely different. It's really working on helping that individual develop that self-awareness and they're more in the driver's seat, which can be very difficult for a task-oriented person to pause and to be there. But coaching to me is really allowing the space for not only someone to show up as their authentic self, but at times to discover your authentic self. And it really takes a certain amount of, I think, experience and finesse to be good at that. I don't know if I answered that right.

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[06:27]  Natalie Bulger

No, I think you did and it's very much a standpoint of there's other people that are involved in giving you or anointing that certification in regards to verifying that you you do know what you're doing, you put it in practice. And I love the component of it's not mentorship coaching being different. And it always makes me think when I was in sports, right, the coach was not your best friend. Those times, you know, it was up to you to take to do something with it, but it wasn't they were instructing you on new information or new techniques or new skills versus the back and forth component of that mentor kind of, I think, softer relationship often that we have. So you got to be ready for a coach if you're going to get in to that world, I think, to take it back, to have it be valuable.

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[07:13]  Sara Ann Todd

Yes. Yeah, to be able to sit with those things too. You know, lot of people they just want it fixed very quickly and it's no, it's a process. And so yeah, I love that. Great add.

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[07:26]  Natalie Bulger

Yeah, building those skills. So you mentioned authenticity. And I know this is going to be kind of the thread under our discussion today. And it's interesting because I think, you know, wait, I'm 41. And I'm just now I think, starting to feel what that authentic leader looks like in me or that authentic person. But it's also created this new moment of, okay, am I being confident in who that person is? Or am I coming across cocky to other people? So it's like the more aware you become of this is who I am, this is how I lead, these are my skills and style. I think for those that are really kind of seeing themselves from the outside, that question of how do I appear cocky versus how do I appear confident? And how do I not be dismissive, especially when I know I walked into that room and I was empowered to be the leader, I'm trying to be that leader and know, others there may not be picking up on some of the expectations or where we need to get with. So talk a little bit about that balance because it's a tricky one. And I think sometimes we struggle to see it in other people and we struggle to really know how to navigate it ourselves.

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[08:40]  Sara Ann Todd

Yes, and I think you mentioned kind of a whiplash earlier. And I think, you know, where we're seeing a lot of kind of external noise and that internal conflict that I think you're kind of mentioning is that leaders feel that tension. And the issue there, I think, is not necessarily the lack of leadership capability. It's the lack of that internal clarity. And when leaders know who they are, so like you said, coming into that room, they kind of default to reacting instead of leading with intention. And that's at times, I think, where the inconsistency shows up because of the tension within the different rooms that we are in. And teams in the organization often feel that immediately. And so I think kind of that balance that you're mentioning. Confidence to me often comes from clarity, where that cockiness is more like you're compensating for something. And so a confident leader really understands their strengths and therefore owns their gaps, and I think can stay steady under pressure, where that cocky leader is often trying to prove something or they're easily ruffled. Sometimes I call them roosters. And the difference shows up, I think, in that consistency and especially when things get difficult. And so I think kind of going back to the awareness thing, it's like just knowing yourselves and having that internal control. Because if you can't control yourself internally, you're not going to be able to show up externally.

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[10:35]  Natalie Bulger

I'll say I hope there's no bird enthusiasts listening when I say this reference because I'm not trying to talk bad about geese. But just today I looked at my husband and I said, geese can be really mean, especially when they're feeling threatened. And yet they're also when you watch them fly. I mean, it's the whole birds, they're in that V pattern. They're following who's the leader at that time. And it made me think of that for a second. It's like you have these cocky leaders who do react, who are very, you know, aggressive in response to a threat and they can still have people falling in line behind them. It's the leading with fear or intimidation component. And I'm not saying geese do that. That was literally just a visual reference. But you know, that element of just because you're one or the other doesn't mean that you're not without a set of followers. And I think that sometimes can be very confusing to look at if you're seeing a leader that you're not aligning with to that point that you mentioned the alignment piece. And you're like, but how do you have so many people like on board with this and doing this? Like, can't they see what I'm seeing or what I'm sensing? As you're talking or navigating with some leaders who are, I guess, in a parallel dynamic. So they're not a solo leader. They're not someone on their own. And they're working with folks that aren't at the same level of awareness and alignment. How do you lead them to focus internally and to navigate in spaces where others maybe don't have that same amount of reflection.

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[12:04]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, and to me, along with a lot of things, you know, it comes down to practice. And I think self-awareness is a practice. And it's, and a lot of people will say that self-awareness comes from reflection, which is absolutely true. We need to create the space for that. But it's not about, I think, reflection alone, where a lot of people were just going to like, like reflect on that and learn from that. But really being able to have that recognition in real time. And again, that's kind of where the practice comes in to be able to get to there. So those early leaders, they're not necessarily gonna have that, but as they continue to work through that, they might realize something after the fact. And as they continue to do that, they'll develop the ability to start to do that in real time, where I think they then can become a stronger leader. And kind of start to name how they're showing up under pressure. Also when things are going well, you know, being able to have that balance of both sides to pull on, you know, that those strengths on either side, I think allows you to show up better, no matter what situation you find yourself in. And I think it's that awareness that really allows them to kind of adjust before it impacts others kind of like being not necessarily risk-averse, but you have the ability to run and not necessarily marinate on scenarios, but you start to understand the environment, the room, the stakes, the strategic plan, the long game. And so you're able to kind of, I think, just sort through that in real time. And I think, to answer your question, it just really comes down to practice. And sometimes, you need a safe space to be able to do that in. That's where coaching comes in. But also, you know, having a small peer group and that could be within your organization or outside your organization, but it comes down to practice. And every time I say that, it's like, practice? Are we talking about practice? You know, yeah, we're talking about practice.

 

[14:16]  Natalie Bulger

And it is, it's something that you have to, and it's tough, right? Because when you're leaders, you have to almost wait for the moment to practice, to present itself, and then realizing this is practice, even though it's real life and I'm doing it and, you know, work through it. Cause even when you do role play, it's still maybe not with the same extent of, I hate to say the reactions you can't control. It's those employees that had a bad day and you didn't realize it when you walked in the room. And now that, you know, what you thought might go smoothly or have a, you know, certain outcome has completely pivoted and having to adjust. I think it's a great lead into a conversation about who we are is almost an enhancement, or who we are as leaders, is an enhancement of who we are as a person. And a lot of us carry with us experiences from a young age, and when we first engaged with schoolmates, teachers, levels of authority with our family members to our education into these roles that we're in now. And I think that I've heard from a lot of mentees, Mia Ann talked about it when I had her on, this idea of what's the balance between who I am as a person and how that shows up in who I am as a leader. Do I separate them? Do I learn to be someone else when I'm sitting in that C-suite or that director seat? Or do I really find ways to merge them together without somehow losing who I've initially been? How have you looked at that or worked through it yourself or with any of the clients that you have.

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[15:53]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, wow, and we could spend the whole time, I think, on them alone. But I think, you know, it's, you know, your personal story, it shouldn't kind of inform your leadership and how you're showing up, but not necessarily control it. You know, the goal is, I think, to bring your entire kind of personal experience into your into the room without disclosing that to everyone. You know, we have boundaries and the awareness of what part of that story is appropriate for the room and the audience that we're with. And so we want to use that, I think, with intention, which helps us build trust and I think context to the situation that we find ourselves in. It can help establish or build those relationships or foster those relationships a little bit better. I think when it's used well, it can strengthen credibility, but when it's not used well, it completely distracts from that. And so I think, you know, vulnerability in that sense is about truth and where humility is about perspective. And I think both really matter. Where leaders get into trouble from what I've seen at least, and from personal experience too, is when that vulnerability kind of turns into an emotional spillover or when humility turns into shrinking. That can happen a lot with leaders as they start to shrink. And I think the question to ask is whether what we're sharing is helping move the team, the project or whatever it is forward. Again, kind of going back to being appropriate and having the awareness for the situation that it's kind of what I say about that. What are your thoughts?

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[17:55]  Natalie Bulger

Yeah, I think I agree. And what you made me think of is a standpoint of sometime the strongest leaders are the ones who know when to step back off the podium, right? So either it's because it's not my expertise necessarily. And if you're a good leader, you surround yourself with people who know more than you know, in many ways. But also, we're humans and we go through some really, really hard times. And you never know what's going on behind the scenes of that person when they are you know, stepped out, their briefcase is closed, the teams' session is done. And I think that if we build those great teams, we as leaders can be humble in the sense of turning it over to the person best suited in this moment for that. And sometimes that's not me. Sometimes that is someone else because my capacity is so limited at that point. And I think that's hard, especially when folks like the name recognition is there and all of sudden someone that you've never seen before is in the room and you're like, well, where's Jane? Jane's always the person that's in here delivering this message. And how do you, you know, build that kind of confidence without losing the reputation that you are still the person in charge? And that is one of the most niche skills, I think, that when you see it, you recognize it instantly. And when you don't see it, you're left with so many more questions, which is just kind of, what's going on? Where is everyone? Is someone else taking over? What happened? Are they okay? Are they not okay? And then it distracts back to your point of what's the task at hand that we need to get to?

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[19:30]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, I love that and I will try not to spiral us too much, but you mentioned like the sometimes aspect. For me, yeah, there's a sometimes where maybe people don't show up as their best selves or they've had a difficult day and they just can't do what's being asked. But then there's things where they know right away that that's not even the right ask for them. And so being able to name that and then find the person that brings them joy somehow. It's something that just sucks the life out of us, but it is gonna give someone else joy to be a part of that task. And I think identifying that person, which kind of, when you said that whole Jane piece, like where's Jane? Well, who's another Jane in the organization? So how are we building the bench of leaders within that organization? So Jane's not getting wore out in herself. We're not relying just on Jane and we're seeing that there's a myriad of people within the organization that can deliver and can deliver in different ways.
 

[20:44]  Natalie Bulger

And I'll just say that that means they're not Jane Jr. That means that they are Mary and they are Jim. Like they are still themselves because if all you're creating are juniors of that one person, there is no variability. There is no robustness then. And you're still relying on that one person to set the tone for everything, which can be very, very overwhelming as a whole.

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[21:09]  Sara Ann Todd

Yes, yes, love that.

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[21:11]  Natalie Bulger

So you mentioned vulnerability and this is something back, gosh, like episode 10 or something, Julius Boatwright, one of my friends, and I feel like I reflect on that episode all the time in new ones, but he brought up strategic vulnerability and it goes back to that, where do you kind of be a person, where do you not? But it also, and I want to, because you mentioned it with humility. And what does humility actually look like in leadership? And what does vulnerability actually look like in leadership? Because for a long time, I think they were seen as weaknesses. They don't have to be, but they still can be. I can imagine, you know you don't want to walk into a room and someone ends up with the woe is me party of like, well, I'm not able to do this. And there's no one that can step in and I don't know. And where do we go? or I'm always giving credit to other people, which can actually be detrimental over time, now there doesn't ever look like there's a leader because I'm humble and giving everything to everyone else. And we hear it all the time in interviews, like, don't say we, say I, say my team, you know, take that credit piece. So how do we, or how have you seen, as we're embracing this a little bit more, coaching people to share credit, but still take credit in a way that balances really well for the teams that are around.

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[22:38]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, I love that question. I think it comes down to kind of truth and honesty. So there are times, especially in interviews or on resumes, where people will try to present themselves in a way that they just can't then speak to. So they need to be very careful with that. But I think to your point about those people that are really, you know, in that position of where they were a catalyst of that, to be able to speak to that without sounding like it was, you know, that they're taking all of the credit, but yet they still need to share the credit because a lot of things that we do, especially within healthcare, you know, it's not as a result from one person. It's the entire team coming together throughout the system. And I would keep in mind when you were asking that is that it's like, does a person, and again, it's different for everyone. You know when I work with different clients because some people can take a compliment and some people cannot some people it's easy for them to give compliments and some it's not so they're it's different for everyone but I think as leaders we are kind of the conductor of the orchestra and so or you know some people will say you know facilitator or whatever the word is is we as leaders are able to, I think you mentioned earlier, put people in the right positions and pull on their strengths and know when to maybe pull someone out and put someone in kind of where we started with the coaching whole mentality of you see someone getting winded as they're going up and down the court. I'm gonna relate it to basketball, because that's my favorite sport. But you have that awareness of what is going on. You kind of see that big picture. You speak in that way, that you were, what you were able, I think, to draw from others. Because again, when it comes back to leadership, that's what it's all about. It's literally growing and developing other people. And so you're not necessarily, in my point of view, taking credit for that end result, because it's that person that drove that forward. But you created the environment, the space, you provided the resources and the ability for that team to make that happen. And I think that's the difference for me. It's being able to say that not necessarily that you did it, but you orchestrated it and you were there from the beginning to the end. And sometimes, yeah, you step back and it's an easy day for you and there's other times where you absolutely had to be in the weeds of it, but you were able as a leader to orchestrate that, to facilitate that to what it was. And I think that kind of highlights an even more important point that that's a very difficult thing to do, especially when you have multiple personalities involved, you're at the project or whatever it is, you know, stretches across the healthcare system, you have competing priorities, and so I think that actually can elevate a leader in a way. I don't know if that makes sense. What do you think?

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[25:50]  Natalie Bulger

No, it does. As we're kind of talking about these leadership components, I think it's really important to acknowledge that leaders, even though we I'm saying C-suite director, I'm putting a title on them. Often some of your strongest leaders are sitting in the chairs right next to the people doing the same job they're doing. And so it's undefined leadership and that they don't have a title. But you almost can start to sense, who does everyone go to? Who do they lean on? Who helps translate when you need translation being done? And ironically, the people that inherently have those skills sometimes don't want the titles. They don't want the bureaucracy that comes with now being a defined leader in the organization. But you can still work with that.

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[26:33]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah. Yeah, sometimes that minimal pain increases down with it.

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[26:43]  Natalie Bulger

That is that that element that we've been, you know, continuing to bat around of, then who do you have around you? Who are the liens? Who do you lean on when you need something like that? And then what's the recognition that they do want? Maybe they don't want anything. Maybe the best recognition is you never say their name in a meeting. Like you said, I don't take compliments well, like just let me let me do my job and don't say anything. But, you know, if there are elements of those inherent leader qualities that we see in people. And I think kind of where I'm going with this is you've got someone you know, they'd be great at what they're doing, you want to elevate them. And they're like, Nope, no way am I going to do that. Does the question become then, how do I make those skills teachable? Or are there things that aren't something that we can teach that you really just have to find the right person? Hard question for a coach, I know. Like, is there an uncoachable leadership skill that you've found over time?

 

[27:46]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, I want to peel the question apart a little bit because yes, as leaders, we often see potential in people before they do themselves. But it sounds like in that question, the person was either resistant or reluctant. And so I would have to understand why. Why did they not want to step into that role? And that as a coach then could be a ton of layers too. Maybe it's working on confidence. Maybe it's developing to your point, you know, some skills that were necessary for them to then feel confident. You know, there are many people that I have helped progress through different roles in their career that they never thought possible. And part of it, I think, is maybe they didn't necessarily believe in themselves, but they also then didn't give this space to even consider it. And so I would want to pause there and figure out why that person doesn't want to. And this was hard for me early on in my career is there are some people that don't want to grow. And I was like, what? Like that was like, how? But they're comfortable. Like that's what they wanted. They're in that position. They love what they do. They want to stay there. And that's just them. And so if that was the case, I think it's, we need to kind of step back and really assess that a little bit more, or maybe start to give them a little bit of stretch assignments of not necessarily trickery, but like you thought you couldn't do it, but you just did type of things. Maybe to test both sides of that, if what we think we see in them is true and what they don't see in themselves is wrong, if I have that right in my head. But I don't know. I think your question was, are there people that are uncoachable? And no, I think the coaching just takes different directions. Like there are a lot of people that maybe have a goal or an objective in their mind and through the conversation, we realized that the direction needs to shift. You know, there needs to be a pivot there. And as we address this other issue, that then allows them to move forward differently. So I think there's always value there, but the direction changes. What are your thoughts?

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[30:32]  Natalie Bulger

Well, as you were saying that, you know, and move forward, sometimes I think, you know, I think back to when I supervised, which very academic sense of leadership. But there were some people who you may be a great leader, but this is not the place where you're going to be the great leader. You need to be in a different place. And, you know, and the resistance actually being no, I really love it here. I just need you to get with my plan. And like, so it becomes this kind of weird power dynamic. But I think we you always hear this idea of, if people truly have the ability to succeed, a good leader will help them find that place where that is. And it may not be with us or with this effort or this project. And so I think it's less about I guess now that I reflect on my own question, are there people who are uncoachable? And it's more fitting the square peg in the round hole. It's more of get the square peg to the square hole where they will go really well because those skills or competencies they have actually fit there.

 

[31:34]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah. And I love that you brought that up because there's sometimes where I'll be having these conversations with some of these executives and they'll be constantly talking about this person that's really like causing them, you know, grief, anxiety or whatever. And it's like, well, why are they even in that position? Well, because that's the position that they were hired in. Okay. But now you've realized they're not the best fit for that position. So where else in your organization could they thrive? Sometimes we spend so much energy kind of in that judgment area of what's not working or, you know, and I don't want to say victim mentality because that's not right, but it's like you're just stuck in a place where you don't necessarily have the answers and so you're just going to complain about it versus if you, how can you be, how can you change the situation? How can you be helpful to this situation? What's going to benefit yourself, the organization in that person? and then just make it happen. Obviously, as you and I know in the government sector, it's not that easy. A lot of, you know, the private sector has a lot of flexibility with how they utilize their resources and their people.

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[32:51]  Natalie Bulger

And it goes back again to what you said earlier about what is our actual goal, what is our task? And I think where there are those flexibilities to have the conversation and it's not to eliminate the fact that people have feelings and people have responsibilities and needs, but if I am spending more time trying to figure out how to handle one to two people who are square pegs in the round hole that I have, then actually doing what needs to be done for our clients, for our customers, for patients, whoever that might be, we have to, I guess, have that grown up moment of we're adults in this room and there is a mission and feelings have to come out of the equation for a little bit. And for empaths, that is a really hard thing to do. leaders because you feel responsible then for the reactions or for the consequences. But dwelling on it's not going to help it any more than actually taking some kind of action and then riding that action through and navigating what does result from that.

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[33:51]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, so you mentioned kind of being the empath and feeling, I don't think you said to blame, but guilty for that. But how does staying in that situation as an empath, I mean, isn't the same feeling?

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[34:00]  Natalie Bulger

Yeah. It's exhaustion because it drains over time and you know, other people that are being impacted you take that in for. So it's funny. It's the one thing that I wish people, I wish we had known earlier in leadership training to get a coach for that, right? That is here's how you deal with hurt feelings. Here's how you navigate the feelings component of the people around you because they're not widgets. They will have feelings. We're still in a business. A business doesn't have feelings. You know, so how do you balance that out? Because it feels like the one thing you're taught conflict management all the time. You're taught here's where you find your HR attorneys. Here's where you get that stuff. But the actual component of internally when I reflect back, what do I do when I'm done with that? And to your point, what did I do for the three months leading up to it?

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[35:00]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah. And I love that you kind of layered in that feelings aspect again, because it's about not only being intentional, but I think expressing your intent because yes, everyone has a myriad of emotions and different people are going to feel different things that aren't necessarily relatable between those two people. But if you are expressing your intent, my intent is to place you in a place that you can thrive in that brings you joy. That you can come to work and be happy about versus worrying about 50 things on your way to work. I don't know. I'm not necessarily an empath in that way. So is sharing the intent, does that mitigate that in any way or what you think?

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[35:47]  Natalie Bulger

I think it can in some instances. I think in others, it comes across as that's an excuse to get me out of, you know, because I'm your problem child or whatever that might be. But I always catch myself when I do that, because I'm making assumptions of what that other person will think. And I've been very surprised in some instances in conversation. And there's other ones where I've gone in thinking this is going to be a piece of cake. And all of a sudden you're blindsided. And it's like, oh, my gosh, I had no like, that was not what I assumed would be the interaction. So it's a lot of that assuming makes an ass out of you and you and me for sure.

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[36:18]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah. Yeah, which takes us back to the relationship component that is so critical for being a leader. When you have a true relationship with the people that you're leading, you kind of have that sense of awareness on both sides as well as well. There's that trust level too, but to where you can have, you have conversations. And so instead of like dictating, you're like, hey, you know, it seems that, you know, this is not your, you know, desirable role. Like you're showing up to work, like this is not maybe where you want to be two years from now. Where would that place be? And I think having those conversations, you know, kind of leading with curiosity in a way to see what that other person might want to do, kind of back, I guess, to the coaching thing, but would that allow a person not to necessarily have to assume?

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[37:21]  Natalie Bulger

And I do wonder, you know, it's funny as we talk about this additional layer of coaching, and it's not necessarily a supervisor's job to coach, it's not always their job to mentor, it's their job to make sure things are operating as intended and the outcomes are what they are. There's probably and I know I've seen this in multiple organizations, you can ask, do we have funding for a coach for this person? Like they've, they want to do this, they're dedicated to doing it. I'm not the right person to do it. Who can we connect them with? How do we get them an objective coach to come in? And maybe then you do start to see changes. But that's that connector facilitator piece I think we hit on super early on is knowing who to connect with what along the way.

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[38:07]  Sara Ann Todd

I love all of what you just said. And so, yes, because sometimes to the first thing, it's like, it's not a safe space. There's tension there. You know, there's a lot of moving pieces, competing priorities. I think to your first point, you know, the leader is not necessarily the coach. Sometimes, you know, they're expected to be the leader, the manager, the coach, because the organization doesn't have the resources and the organizational structure to support a dynamic, flourishing, I think, healthy leadership channel. And so yes, being able to know that you don't either have the capacity or the space isn't right or the relationship isn't right and how do you outsource that, yeah, is key. Absolutely. And that's why I think companies like mine, as well as many others exist, because they do believe in really being that resource for that individual as well as that organization. And I think outsourcing can be very beneficial, especially if the relationship between kind of that subordinate and that leader, that supervisor is not a cohesive one. It's a great point.

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[39:24]  Natalie Bulger

Well, I love the dialogue back and forth to this is like a mini mini coaching session for me and probably anyone else who might be listening with similar experiences but back when you first introduced yourself you mentioned kind of the different phases you've you know been in the military. Thank you for your service. You've been in private sector. You've worked in the federal government again. Thank you for your service right back to the veterans in that community. But those are different points of life, right? Very different, probably leadership styles that may have been required or that were learned during those times. You and I are right now in a new bridge of kind of leadership experience where it's not maybe the same cookie cutter we had in the past. And as a part of that, we're probably noticing some of our style shifting. I'm far more authoritative than I was even a year ago because I'm like, I'm being brought in as a subject authority leader in this area and therefore I'm going to meet the call for that. But sometimes I go, this doesn't feel like me anymore. But yet it very much is. So how do we get comfortable with that shift in style? That it's not that we're abandoning who we once were. It's maybe taking in more inputs and information, becoming more robust, having a different phase of life, parent, not parent, you know, closer to retirement, you know, any of those kinds of things. What do those bridge the gap arcs kind of look like? That it's like, all right, well, I'm jumping into something new. My style might be changing or I'm in the old thing. My style no longer fits here. Where do I go now?

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[41:02]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, and so when you mentioned comfortable that kind of jumped out to me and for me personally when people are comfortable they then often become complacent which doesn't serve us well especially as leaders and so I try to really work with people and on myself to be I think comfortable with the uncomfortable. And I think to your point, that's because leadership evolves because the environments that we find ourselves in and maybe that layer of responsibility is what's evolving. Where I think the key is not necessarily to resist that change or overcorrect that change. It's how can we stay aware of maybe our decision making or the patients and how are we responding to that pressure? Where are things shifting externally as well as internally? And I think that strong leaders, as you are in the situation that you just described, you're recalibrating intentionally rather than kind of drifting into a new version of yourself. It's more of an involvement. It's evolutionary growth that's happening versus you like changing characters. When I say you, I mean all of us. If we're being characters and showing up as different people in different spaces, that's exhausting. But I think what makes a leader great is knowing that you are not who you used to be, and that's a good thing. Because as we evolve, we learn, we continuously learn, which allows us to show up as a better version of ourselves. I do not want to go back to who I was as a leader in 2015. That was served me for that moment in my time. And it's that growth that happened along the way that's allowed me to be who I am today. And I think that's exactly kind of what you were saying. Like you're showing up in different spaces in different roles and you're stepping into the room in a different way. And that might not feel like who you've been, but my question is, is that who you're becoming?

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[43:18]  Natalie Bulger

And to trust it, right? There's like a reason you've been invited to that table. There's a reason you're there. And that change in style is probably going to open different doors for you over time. What met me where I was yesterday is not what meets me where I am tomorrow and embracing that.

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[43:36]  Sara Ann Todd

Yes. And I think taking your I love that you said there's a reason I'm here I have to remind myself at time and as well as others, but I belong here. You know, I was invited for a reason because I belong here. And I think being included I say this a lot being included in being belonging are two completely different things, but when you can really feel that you belong and help others belong. I think the outcomes shift dramatically.

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[44:06]  Natalie Bulger

Yeah. So I'm to get into probably the messiest part of the hot mess to high potential conversation right here at the end. So hopefully folks are sticking around for this. You know, it's very near and dear to you and my heart and we'll say it in generalities, but we are also in a world right now where there is a level of higher mid leadership that's kind of under the thumb, I will say, of senior executives. And those senior executives may not be the leaders that we all envisioned that we would be under or working with. And we've watched them in many cases and they've been well televised, private and public, that they're not taking accountability for things like their words, their statements, things that have been written that have been deemed fully inaccurate and harmful. And it's something that I know alignment wise, I was glad that I was no longer aligned with those leaders from an organizational standpoint when those things happened. But I want to just touch on why it's so important that when a leader makes a mistake, whether or not they fully believed in what they were doing at the time, but it's very clear at this point, a mistake has been made. How to handle that in a way that isn't, I resign, I'm gone. It isn't, you but I said something wrong. I admit that I said something wrong. Do you leave it there? Do you say more? Do you have to have an apology? Do you say it'll never happen again knowing darn well it might? Like, how do we handle that in those instances? Because we all at some point will probably come on a situation like that that we're faced with.

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[45:43]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, gosh, there's so many layers there. One, I would say two, there are things where certain people say things and do things that they think is right. And maybe that's how their mind works. And that's true to them somehow. However, having the awareness and I think the empathy of how others are seeing that, feeling that, kind of the impact of that are two completely different things. And so there are some people that are very special and not being able to understand the impact, the true impact of their words and their decisions. And so I think it's difficult to have a sense of accountability when others are kind of avoiding it. And accountability is really owning I think your impact and it's not necessarily proving that you're right. And when people avoid kind of that accountability, it creates instability and it erodes trust quickly. And I think we've, many people probably experienced that within certain organizations and in high stakes environments, and I don't want to relate everything to healthcare, but we have a background in healthcare. and really any organization, but that creates real consequences. And so staying accountable, even when others are not, is what maintains, I think, integrity in your leadership. We can't force accountability, but we can create an environment where it's expected and reinforced. And I think to your point is, you know, you mentioned having to maybe not step away, but there is going to come a time in every leader's career where they are possibly confronted with something that conflicts with their morals and values. And to continue to show up as, again, your authentic self, you have to make a decision of I think what environment you're going to continue to be a part of because there can be conflict there.

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[48:10]  Natalie Bulger

No, no, you were right on point because where I wanted to take that is I always acknowledge I had a layer of privilege when I stepped away from the VA. When I made that decision that the alignment was so off for me with what was happening and what I believed, what I morally felt was correct, the way I led, I had a backup. I had a husband that had income, had health insurance, had what I was needed. And I know that there were other people in the same position who didn't have that. And so, you know, they're continuing to potentially work in an organization. And this is across federal, private, wherever you might be. Those major upheavals at those highest levels often come with a massive shift in cultural approach that may not align, that you don't have the chance to just walk away. But at that point, then the conversation goes, well, how do those leaders, quiet or official, how did they push back? in a sense that does protect from moral injury or that feeling of I've contributed to this, but also doesn't set them up or their teams up to take the punishment that may come from some of those environments. Because I think that that's where I see a lot of folks now. There's this breadth of individuals that have said, I'm taking the leap, I'm getting out. We feel good. We're scared financially, but we feel good. And I talk to those that are maybe still in certain circumstances and they're like, God, I wish I could do what you did. Like, but what can I do right now? How do I, do I just keep my head down? Do I just not acknowledge? Do I, you know, stand up even further and take more risk? So I think that's the kind of final component is that. If we are stuck in that rock and hard space between someone who's leading in a way that we don't align with, that is causing us our own kind of internal conflict, and we don't have a realistic right now option to get away, how do you lead in those moments? What are some of the things you can lean on for yourself and for those that might be looking towards you?

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[50:20]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, and that's hard. And I think that's different depending on the environment and the situation that people find themselves in. But what I've found to be most effective is just being transparent. If things suck, you say things suck. Maybe you use a different word, but the language is a shared language to where this is a very difficult time. We don't know the time span of how difficult this is gonna be. And we know it's difficult to show up with the level of uncertainty, with the level of pressure, with all of the changing pieces, you know, day to day or whatever that is within that system. But I think transparency and I can't have again, going back to being accountable when others are avoiding it. And I used to hate this early in my career, but like focus on what it is that you can control. So if that's making sure that, you know, the immediate environment that they're working in is a safe space and a happy space. And yes, there's a lot of noise and that's what's happened. It's so much noise. And I think maybe to your point too, how can you eliminate some of that noise? Not only, and a lot of leaders will take that on themselves. And so their team doesn't have to, but I think the important thing for a leader is also you need to deflect that noise. You need to be able to be like, this is noise right now in an hour from now, in a day from now, the situation's gonna be different. So being able to, I think maybe put up some boundaries, put up some walls and say, you know what is it specifically that you're showing up for? Or I think to your point earlier, we're here for the patients or the customer is different for different organizations, but focusing back on the mission and being connected to the mission. And, you know, with some teams that I've worked with, that is, it's necessary for them to start every single meeting with telling a story about, you know, if that's a veteran, if that's a diabetic patient that got the, you know, whatever it was that they needed, like they share those stories at the beginning of meetings so people can kind of have that space to truly reflect on it, okay, this is why I showed up for work today. And I think to that point as well, as a leader, knowing that that degree of kind of variability or what people are able like to carry, because to your point earlier, there's so much going on in people's personal lives, is going to look very different. And so encouraging people to step away when they can step away, to take time to do whatever it is that they want to do and hopefully not take a Friday off to run a bunch of errands, but really do what is going to re-energize them. And I feel like I'm not necessarily answering the question, but it's like, just how can you be light in the darkness? And just focus on that. Not necessarily judging the situation or going down the negativity of the situation because yeah, again, it sucks. Okay, fact, what are we gonna do about it? How can we sustain this? How can we support each other through this? And what does that support look like for each of the people?

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[53:18]  Natalie Bulger

I think you hit it right on the dot with the noise component. And we have more noise now than ever because of the way that we receive information. And it's not through concise channels or snail mail or an in-person meeting that was planned a month in advance. It is real time. Who saw it on Reddit first? It's all of those pieces across all industries. So I think when you kind of mentioned that, the light at the tunnel, it's also the step back to the 10,000 foot view for a second. And the wild part to me is, you know, where we're at, it's for those of us that went through the administration change and saw everything that happened in all of the agencies, it's been over a year since that chaos, so to speak, started. And I ask people in some of the agencies, what really has happened to you? And the answer in many cases is, well, not that much. Like there are insulated parts that haven't been impacted, they're impacted because of the fear that's been built around a lot of things. So it's not to say that there aren't some that are like, yeah, my whole division was dissolved and I was, you know, given a letter says thanks for being here. Like that really did happen. But if to your point, focusing on what you can control my team, my division, my group 10,000 foot view, not to say it can't happen, but right now in the last 14 months, we've been more worried about what could than anything that has actually come to fruition. And that I think is one of the hardest things to reinforce when you might be feeling that anxiety around it too and being like, well, when it does hit the fan, I'm gonna be the one that has to talk about it.

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[55:20]  Sara Ann Todd

Yes. Yeah, and one thing that I, if you were just thinking, I think is something that I heard recently on a podcast, I can't remember which one though, was they talked about how leaders are, and I don't think they use managers, but leaders manage energy. And to your point of, what is it that you're being able to control and all of those things, like how can you manage the energy of not only, you know, your team, but yourself? And I think if we were just to focus on something small, let the rest of the noise go. How can I control the energy in this moment? Could maybe allow people to show up differently.

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[56:10]  Natalie Bulger

Mm hmm. Yeah. And we're well, when we're surrounded by a big group of mirrors, I find that's what a lot of our you know, when you manage teams, the team mirrors back to you the energy that you put out there. So I think that's a great kind of closing reminder for folks. It's what you and it goes back to cocky confidence, what you walk into the room with will most likely reflect back in some nature, whether you're reflecting it to the person that you've seen, or they're reflecting back to you. And those are signals that we should listen to for sure.

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[56:41]  Natalie Bulger

So Sara, we have talked for almost an hour already. It's crazy how time flies. If folks have been listening and they're starting maybe, what I'm hoping people take out of this is more confidence that the signs that you're receiving about who you are in your leadership, everyday life even, like leading your household, leading in friend groups, things like that, to not discount them because there's something there telling you something. And you don't have to figure it out on your own. You can invest. Your company may be willing to invest in you in something like that, or personally, if this is what you're really drawn to. So, Sara Ann, tell us, where can we find at least more information about leadership investments, which I love. It's investing in yourself, investing in leadership, and getting in touch with you on any kind of access beat they might have to learn more about what opportunities there are for taking this a step further if they want.

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[57:40]  Sara Ann Todd

Yeah, I appreciate that very much. The best way to contact me is either through my website or LinkedIn. I try to be really active on LinkedIn and that's just Sara Ann Todd, S-A-R-A-A-N-N. Todd and then my website is leadershipinvestments.biz. So those are probably the best ways, but I really love kind of engaging with people, connecting with people. I mean, that's what brought us together was LinkedIn, you know, in like being in relationships and not necessarily when we first kind of talked to each other. I don't even know how long ago that was like six months ago. It's like, how can you really have, you know, a true relationship with someone versus a transaction through time kind of thing. Love to be connected with people on LinkedIn. Truly appreciate engagement, having conversations. And then my website.

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[58:39]  Natalie Bulger

Awesome. Well, hopefully if this is resonated with folks, you will get some reach out or inquiries, things like that. But again, really just hoping we want to be a part of the new leadership shift, I think, that's going to be coming in these next years because we're in a very, I think, instructive time on what will last and what will see us through some very difficult changes that I'm sure we'll all experience. And especially if you are a veteran who is interested in becoming a leader, working with someone like Sara Ann, who is a veteran herself, who's been in the communities. I can't also say enough for that because I think we know populations a little bit better when we've lived them and been a part of them. And sometimes it can help to really kind of know that. I definitely would not be able to explain what it's been like to be in a military environment or anything along those lines. So keeping that in mind when you're picking your coach or you're working with someone and those extra little experiences they bring to the table. So Sara Ann, thank you so much for being here today. Having this really interesting conversation that I think makes us all look a little bit deeper in who we've been, who we might be, and that there's no right way necessarily to go about developing your style as long as you're working towards it in the kind of long run effort.

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[59:54]  Sara Ann Todd

Yes, yes. Thank you. I appreciate you being here. Thank you again for having me and for everyone for listening.

 

[60:01]  Natalie Bulger

You bet. Everyone else, thanks for listening and we hope to talk to you again soon.