0:30  Natalie Bulger

(OPENING) This episode contains discussions of sexual, physical, and psychological violence. If this is something you are currently navigating or healing from, please give yourself permission to sit this one out. It is okay to pause, skip, or come back to this episode when you're ready. If you need support, reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or text START, S-T-A-R-T, to 88788. You can also chat at thehotline.org. They're available 24-7.

 

Hey there, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Motivation N'at. I'm Natalie, your host. This is where we take hot mess to high potential. And hopefully you tuned in last week. Last week was the conversation that was part one with the amazing Sarah Ludwig, where we started to pull back the really sticky icky layers of intimate partner violence and what it mostly meant in the data and the research and the understanding about the victim and the perpetrator relationship piece. And because the conversation was so just layered and so many parts to it, we held off and decided part two would be the follow-up episode where we're going to finish that first part of the conversation, but also acknowledge and talk about what it's like when you're the village surrounding that victim or that relationship. We understand everyone's got boundaries. Everyone's got breaking points. And this isn't just something that is vacuumed to the two people that may be involved. There's so much more to it. So we're going to touch on that today. But definitely, if you haven't listened to part one, hop on back, listen to that one and come on back to this when you're ready, because there's a lot. It's a heavy topic. Two hours of this in a row might be a little much for folks, but this episode will be here whenever you're ready for it. So Sarah, thank you for making time to come on back. Let's do a quick refresher for anyone that, hey, it's been a week or it's been a month since they listened to the last one on what is intimate partner violence? What are some of the complexities, some of the stigmas and some of the warnings? And then we'll shift into the first new topic of today's discussion.

 

2:57  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Well, I'm happy to be back. There's so many things to talk about that it is so hard to fit it into one. I hope that for people that were able to catch the first one too, that maybe something stands out. Like that's the goal, is that if something can stand out last time, if something can stand out this time, it could be that one thing that helps somebody either step back or step forward to help somebody that they care about. This is such a normal thing that I'm really, really glad to be here to talk about again. So thank you for bringing me back here. Like recap, one of the things that we didn't talk about last time was we were using domestic violence and intimate partner violence kind of interchangeably and just might be a good idea to break that down a little bit is when we're talking about intimate partner violence, we are referring to being in a relationship with somebody that is intimate. So it doesn't necessarily have to mean sexual intimacy, but some type of commitment in a romantic type of way. This could be current or past. So that is the intimate partner violence. And domestic violence is the family, essentially. So it goes outside of just those two people in a relationship. This can be parent to child, whoever is kind of in the family system. So hopefully that's helpful.

 

4:28  Natalie Bulger

Well, let's touch on a couple of the stigmas or the signs. So what are some of the things that may be the first warning sign of an intimate partner violence situation kind of brewing that we may not think to notice and why some of those signs and warnings are actually also tied to stigmas that people may see good or bad. That idea of, well, no, that's completely fine or that's normal. Like you said, this happens so much that there are some things that we have justified as just normal life these days and really shouldn't be.

 

5:01  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

No, you're right. So many things are normalized. And to the extent that we want to normalize having conversations about this. It might not be as normal as talking about the mundane things that you do throughout your week, but it needs to be something that we're talking to our kids about. We're talking to family members about this happens. This is in, you know somebody, everybody does. So that being said, I think even just the stigma part of that these are weak, vulnerable, stupid, gullible individuals who don't know any better or come from bad homes or have abusive histories and things like that. Like certain things might make us more susceptible to intimate partner violence and domestic violence, but one doesn't equal another. And a lot of the times the stereotypical abuser will say, is going to be a smooth talker. They're probably going to be handsome or good looking. They might have some level of power in their professional world, whether it's like working in the legal system or having a really high-paying job or being well-respected. It could even look like being a youth soccer coach or being involved in the church or whatever it might be. So these are not, I think I had mentioned the ridiculous example of the unmarked white van and a trench coat and candy in the inside. It doesn't look like that. Looking schmoozers. Anybody could fall, victim to that. And a lot of the times people come into our lives in really vulnerable moments. So, so many stigmas, so not true. And in fact, the more kind of empowered somebody is, it's almost like the better takedown in some ways. So, stigmas, no. We're not like terrible, terrible things. In terms of like first warning signs, that's a really tricky one because I don't even know, like when I'm just thinking about working with clients, for example, like I use the example a lot as I do OCD related work. I've sat with people for years and had no idea that they had OCD until they said one thing that was a little bit weird. Then I'm like, wait a minute, let's pump the brakes. It can look like that with these kinds of relationships. Why would you know? Like, I don't know what your back and forth texts look like. I don't know what happens in the bedroom. I don't know what the expectations are.

 

9:07  Natalie Bulger

Mm-hmm. It's not going to be the black eye. Generally, there's been a lot happening up before that escalation takes place, if it does. And sometimes there is no physical escalation. It remains very psychological or financial or something else that can be explained away in a different fashion.

 

10:02  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Even if there is physical too, or strangulation like we talked about last time, a lot of the times you're not gonna see visible marks.

 

10:30  Natalie Bulger

So that gets into the new topic that I want to touch on before we head into kind of the support system, which is we were talking about that strangulation component, which I think is very new for people. So if you didn't listen to part one, it's one of the key indicators of potential mortality. It is a sign of massive escalation. Sarah mentioned just a little bit about kind of a felony component that's associated with it too. But I remember there was an episode of Law and Order SVU where half of us have learned about these types of violence by watching it on TV. Livia Benson does a great job in breaking it down for us, but there was an episode where someone always wore a scarf and the anticipation was that it was part of a, that there were marks or injuries, I think, because of a kink in a relationship that she was involved in that had this BDSM lifestyle that was part of it. It was her preference, which you can say one way or another, but... because we do kind of talk about this component of a power dynamic. We know that it happens in the bedroom on a regular basis. We also have been inundated with all of these very lurid books as of late that have taken off. You've started with Fifty Shades of Grey and went from there. And so it brought something that operated behind the scenes and really, I think, a very regimented fashion, those communities. Do a lot of focus on consent and what the roles are and what role you have. And all of a sudden it's in mainstream bedroom, across suburban America and urban and rural. And people starting to mess and play with this without maybe understanding the whole component. So I definitely wanted to touch on a side that people might listen and go, well, we get rough in the bedroom, but that's the way I like it. Or, it would only happen if I ask for it and there's safe words and safe words are monitored. So talk a little bit about kind of what, and it's not again that there is something normal or not normal, but the consent piece, you don't consent to being abused or hurt. But there are some things that may appear that way to someone who doesn't understand that could get confused. So I'll just kind of leave it there. Talk about that little murky component.

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15:59  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Yeah, I like that you use the word murky because when we really look at it, it shouldn't be, it should be crystal clear. Like it got murky. I think 50 shades was a big motivator for that, that shift that we're getting that you had just mentioned, but there should be nothing murky about it. Before I totally answer that, I want to go back to your scarf comment. I love that you said that because that's another thing. Two that I wanted to mention and forgot about things to look out for. If someone's wearing a scarf in the summer, right? Like if someone's wearing long sleeve shirts and things like that, everybody's thinking disordered eating or self harm and stuff like that. That's also another indicator as well. If we're hiding things that doesn't seem, so I love that you brought that up. So thank you for that. That's something else to look out for as well. So it really shouldn't be murky. As you mentioned with the kink BDSM community, wherever people belong, if you are in that community or if you know about this community, consent is the cornerstone. It's everything. There is so much that goes into identifying what consent looks like, ongoing consent. So consent isn't just something that happens at the beginning, it needs to be something that is happening along the way of any type of sexual interaction. And there's a lot of even debate about the ability to be able to consent to choking at all. And even like using the word choking, I mean, I don't wanna be too nitpicky here, but like. It's lethal, it's strangulation. There's no healthy amount of holding on to somebody's neck. We don't know how many brain cells are being killed, that kind of a thing. And if you are in a position where you have somebody who has the ultimate power over you, because they are preventing you from being able to breathe, how do you let them know that enough is enough? What safe words are there? So there should be nothing murky about it. And in fact, with it being something that is so popular online, teenagers are asking questions in sex ed about how to safely choke a partner and things like that, that this is something that's being normalized to the extent where it's like, yeah, we do this. This is normal. And there should be absolutely nothing murky about it. And sexual advocacy groups, will even not condone any form of strangulation whatsoever. It's just, too risky.

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19:19  Natalie Bulger

Well, and if we think about it, we know in police forces chokeholds have actually been outlawed. They're not allowed to be used as a tactic anymore because of the fatalities that have come with them that we have seen on a regular kind of consistent basis over the years when they were employed incorrectly despite training or employed for too long. So it makes sense that there is still a line that is there because all of those things that you mentioned in those communities are so those experiences can be enjoyable to those people. And it's not to say that you still can't end up with some type of violence occurring in those communities that is not consensual. It obviously can still happen. People are individuals and unique from that end. But there are things that they've done to improve the safety likelihood of those things. So one of the things we mentioned before we hopped on that you brought up was a point of we all have histories and those histories, whether or not we realize it may show themselves in our intimacy, what we find intimate, what we respond to from that perspective. And what I want to make sure is that no one feels shamed by saying, I like to be tied up or I like certain things, but I think the question might be, and I'd love your take on this, should they be unpacking why they like those things? Is there something in there that they should know about? Because to that point of, if you build a tolerance, things just continue. You need more and more and more. And if you don't understand it, you might not know why that's happening. So my curiosity question there.

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22:08  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

No, that's a great question. As somebody who does, a lot of my background is in sexual violence specific work. So we talk about these things all the time. What I want to bring up with that, among some other things, is that when we think about the power and control dynamics, which I talk about this so much that I've got a nice little power and control wheel here that's colored and everything. So we talk about this all the time. Power and control is not always a bad thing. We need to have that. We need to have power and control. And unfortunately, the way that we talk about it in this wheel of violence, it's always coming in this negative lens. It's like when I talk to clients about wanting attention or having control. And a lot of the times there's this negative association with it of like, we all need attention and we all need to have a sense of control. Same thing with power and control. So are there absolutely healthy elements to people's sexuality of maybe being turned on by being in a position of power or being in a submissive position? My gosh, absolutely. People do a lot of weird stuff in the bedroom and like do it up. As long as everybody's consenting, love it, it's great. However, when it comes to things like strangulation, in like drugs and alcohol, for example, consent becomes a really significant issue. But in terms of people kind of taking a look at why they like what they like, I don't see any harm in that whatsoever, that it doesn't necessarily have to be something negative, I always tell people, let's not pathologize. We don't need to pathologize things if some things can be weird, but not problematic or pathological. But for some people, building that insight and having a little bit of understanding of why could even better and improve their sex life and maybe improve communication with their partner about the things that turn them on and so, sure.

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26:21  Natalie Bulger

Yeah, so it's not a you have to because not everything's psychological. Ironically, there are things that are actually biological. Our nerves react differently. We may need it's no different than needing a cane to walk sometimes. Maybe you need an assistive device for certain things. So I wanted to make sure because it's a tough conversation, I think, when anyone starts applying normality to things that we don't there isn't really a normal in some cases, but there are limits and those limits, especially when they get encroached upon, may trigger the need to have that conversation. So if you're asking someone, choke me, you might want to talk about why that's the case. So it's a good note because I mean, I'll hate to say I know people who that is their thing. And so it's good to know the risk that you run in those scenarios. And maybe it isn't indicative of a intimate partner violence situation. If someone is like, well, you told me to do it. I did. I wasn't really comfortable with it, you know, kind of think there might be a further discussion to have there. That's just as important as understanding any of these other things.

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28:15  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Yeah. Well, and they don't present the same either, is that a lot of the times strangulation in a relationship where somebody has killed someone, for example, can be used as a way to defend behavior and things like that, where sexual strangulation a lot of the times can happen in the moment without consent, there isn't even time for consent to happen. I thought you wanted that. That looks very different than someone using it in an abuse of power kind of a way. I think those are two different conversations of one is the strict, the ultimate form of power in this intimate partner violence, domestic violence, sexual assault kind of way. And then there's the, hmm, I'm curious about this sexually. Let's take a look. Those look really, really different.

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29:32  Natalie Bulger

I'm glad you called it out and on the case of that first one because we mentioned the felony piece, you looked right before we got online. It's not just a slap on the wrist if that happens, right? What did you find when you were taking a look at what happens as a result of a strangulation?

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31:14  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Yes, so I was aware that in the state of Pennsylvania where we're located, it is a felony and it appears based off of the search beforehand that it is in every state in the United States. So it's not just a slap on the wrist kind of a situation. Due to the lethality predictor of strangulation in intimate partner violence, it's treated accordingly.

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33:36  Natalie Bulger

And it made me think when we see news articles about people famous, name recognition, and something has happened, oftentimes you will see called out and strangled and did something. It's like this element of you assaulted and strangled and I never really put the two together to figure out, why are those separated? Because it's a multiplier fact and it elevates that potential charge higher. So as we think about it, as everyone's kind of reflecting, and I know we've probably had people thinking about themselves for the last 10 minutes or 15 minutes, but shifting back into this thing, and especially when women sit down and we talk to each other and we're discussing our relationships, we're discussing maybe some of those habits or things we're interested in exploring, and some of these things come out. It's also when we may start to understand full breadth of relationships that people have. So as the people that you're with, men or women, are talking about those relationships. And we realize that we operate in this, I always call it the village. You're raised by a village. It's not just one person usually. There's teachers, family members, friends, extended relatives. And all of those individuals have different levels of attachment with a victim or with a perpetrator. And so being able to remove yourself if you're that support person. While still maintaining some type of relationship, while still protecting yourself, respecting your boundaries, it gets really hard. And I think so many of us today, me included, jump to, I'm out, I'm done, I'm not doing this. Like, if you wanna go do that thing, cool, it's tough love, have a good time. It's same thing if you wanna stop drinking. Like, you can't stop your abusive partner. I'm not gonna be a part of this. And so I wanna talk about what that's like for that support team, that support group who may be exasperated or maybe trying to figure out what is their role in this? Do they have a role? Should they have a role? And there's a couple different options for them, right? So I think walking through some of those might be good.

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37:40  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Yeah, sure. It's not a one size fits all. It is perfectly okay to throw in the towel. There's nothing wrong with that. I say that I realize saying that out loud and hearing myself say that sounds like a simple task. Usually, when someone is going into a domestic violence organization for help, this is the 10th time, this is the whatever time, on average it's at least seven attempts to leave a relationship like that. So they've burnt bridges. People are sick of talking to them about it. They don't want, people get really burnt out of being helpless and powerless with someone that they love and seeing them get hurt and that is okay to walk away. So I just want to say that. Like sometimes we, our intentions are really good and we want to help somebody, but an adult is an adult. When you were 18 years old, they can do what they want to do. And same thing with getting the legal system involved and things like that. Like we might want to react and call the police or whatever it might be, like go with our gut with things like that. And it's not always the best and the safest move. So I would say just like, letting yourself be where you are, for one, talking to some people about it, places like Blackburn Center, that's a local one here. You can find any one local on the domestic violence hotline website. They also support loved ones too. So that's a good place to start of like, hey, this is what's going on. Hotlines don't have to be emergency numbers. I will sometimes call the hotline and be like, hey, I need a resource for this. Can you give it to me? It's not the hiding in a bathroom, afraid, phone call. I've gotten calls like that as a hotline worker. That's not the majority of the calls. This is an information, a support, whatever. So you can be a family member and call. Anybody can call. So educate yourself is a really, really good one. And keeping tabs on just what you can manage as an individual.

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40:51  Natalie Bulger

Because it's not, and I think a lot of people take on that fixer role, right? It's my best friend, it's my sister, it's my mother, it's my daughter. It's my job to fix this. Even parents or loved ones of the perpetrator. Like, well, I've got to get them in line. Like, I can think of parents seeing that and going, I didn't raise you this way, and interjecting and getting involved. And so that element, and I love that you call out, kind of you have to honor yourself, is that you come first, you still come first. And I think that's probably really hard if you're a parent to a child that's going through one of these relationships, because it may feel like a failure, it may feel like those things. But ironically, I can see where internalizing that and then reflecting that on the person who's already in that relationship, it's like, well, maybe we shouldn't put on the child that is feeling like this, that I now feel like I failed them for them to be where they are. There's an element of you need to take care of yourself. And I love that you brought up there's resources for you too. Like you can go to therapy and talk about all of the pig pen around you. Like to think, I think a pig pen from the peanuts and all of this stuff doesn't necessarily mean it has to be all the insides. It can be that noise that you have to quiet and understand in order to enter that in a calm manner.

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43:07  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Absolutely, I think one of the fears that people have about seeking help, whether you are being abused yourself or you're an adult that is supporting somebody who's being abused, is fears about confidentiality or what a therapist's role might be in terms of reporting, calling the police, things like that. And when you're dealing with people who are adults, you're allowed to be in an abusive relationship. What ends up happening is you sit down and you safety plan and you figure out how to exist within the situation that you're in for as long as you need to. But I just want to remind people that going and talking about this doesn't equal therapist is calling the police or things like that. That's a violation of confidentiality. Unless it's something where there is a plan, we know what's going to happen. Even if somebody is sexually assaulted and they're over 18, my first conversation with them is like, what do you want to do? Like, here's your options. What do you want to do? And let me tell you why the pros and cons of going into the legal system and what this looks like. It's not for everybody. So there's fear with that. If there are children involved, then that's a little bit different. Like if there are kids that live in the household, the reporting is a little bit different. But if it's all adults, you can go there and talk about getting beat up the night before, the morning of, you can go in with blood on your face and they'll probably get you a tissue and help you get it cleaned up and try and get you resources and stuff like that. They will not be calling the police. So you have safety when it comes to that.

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46:06  Natalie Bulger

So when we think of the gut reaction of potentially doing an ultimatum in some of those circumstances, and I think of tangible kind of examples, someone shows up with a bloody face to your house on a regular basis and you're like, I'm not doing this anymore. You don't come here. If you want to come here for help, then you can't live with that person or you can't be involved with that person anymore. And we touched on one of the components of this power dynamic is isolation. So you are in essence giving them a fast pass to isolate you right out of their life. And sometimes that may be responded to with anger from the victim that is going through this of, you don't love me for me. This is who I am. This is who I love. If you really loved me, you would take on that. And so there's almost like this weird manipulation that can sometimes come back. Is that the effort of that person to keep someone that they know that they can trust and lean on around? And what are the things that we can remember if we're the support team, if that gets said to us? So someone coming and going, well, you must not love me for me, or you must not care about me anymore, or this is just how it's going to be. If you want me around, you'll have to figure out a way to work with it. Because that can be very triggering for people. But there are probably better things that we can respond to with in those situations.

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49:20  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Yeah, so one thing to I think acknowledge for that is we don't always get it right. So a lot of the times when things like this happen, it's unexpected. Even if it's something where it's been a cycle, we don't always know when someone's gonna knock on our door. A lot of the time it's middle of the night. It's a random thing where you get a bang on the door and you're thinking the police are there. Like who's dead, right? And it's really just somebody, so it could be this cycle that you've experienced with them before, but a lot of the times we're thrown off guard and feelings really get involved with it. So we want to react based off of how we're feeling in the moment. And we don't always get it right. So one thing to remember is that you can always call the person or talk to them later and say, listen, I didn't get it right. I'm sorry. Let's do things differently. So that's one, we're not always experts and even experts, we don't always know the exact thing that's going to work every second. So that's one. I would say too of know that the maybe manipulative behavior is really fear driven for a lot of people. If something happens in this relationship, I could lose my income, I could lose custody of my children, it could impact my job, I've been with this person for decades, what does this mean about, like, there's a lot of fear of the unknown of what will happen and how people will respond. The idea of somebody jeopardizing that or ending that relationship without their consent or whatever, I mean, that's really, really scary. So a lot of the times people are acting and speaking out of fear. So I think that's a really important thing to remember and responding in fear is probably a really normal response too. So we have to forgive ourselves and kind of do a redo if we possibly can. But if you think about domestic violence, intimate partner violence, sexual violence, power and control dynamic is we want to be able to give these people power. So making decisions for somebody, telling them what to do, what is best for them is the exact opposite of what these individuals need. So they either need to be empowered to do their own thing, and we also need to tell them that we are individuals, this affects us too, I need to set boundaries for me. So it's really not a one size fits all.

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52:18  Natalie Bulger

Well, I love that reframing because it becomes less about you, you, you, and it becomes more about I'm not in a place right now to be able to support things and you don't owe anyone an explanation and most even though we'd like to give it sometimes, but now is not the time or there are other things that are a priority at this point. And it can be hard to do that calmly especially when you feel like no one's listening to you right back and then it becomes a fear against fear kind of battle. But you can give someone power without expressly saying this is your decision to make. And it doesn't always have to be that A or B choice. There's a lot of space between A and B.

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53:09  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

There is, and I think the number one thing to think about across the board is really just safety. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. Like one of the things that I think about is it could be a really fast decision that you might need to make because you might not want someone to know where you live. So if there is an abuser, for example, we talked about stalking last time, don't come to my house. My kids are here, like you need to leave. There's a time and a place. Like, we really need to consider that. Or let's say that someone is bringing somebody in who has just left a relationship, which we talked about last time, is the most dangerous time in a domestic violence relationship is when you leave up until two years after leaving. That is the most dangerous time. This is when homicides are happening. Don't go run to somebody's house. And they see where you're going and like this is where playing the long game can be really important and it's not just the individuals and the relationship that the safety can impact.

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54:19  Natalie Bulger

And that is definitely one of the things I wanted to touch on, because I remember I had a friend that lived with me and there was at some point just the threat of someone that had a firearm coming to confront someone else that she was speaking with. And I'm like, this is my home. Like, no, no, no, no, no, this, we are not doing this on my property. There, like at that point I was, this is mine and not, not happening. And no one really understood like they hadn't seen it as that escalation because they're so embedded in it, right? Well, it's just a threat. It's just a this. And I'm like, my God, someone's going to get shot. And I can think of that especially for parents or for children that are bringing a parent in that is trying to get out of a relationship and giving them a space. It's easy, right? I've got a bedroom, maybe even for younger, for 18 year olds that, yes, they're emancipated, but they're still in this situation. And all of a sudden we see the violence now expanding to that support system or the threat expanding. You had mentioned you had just found a new tool online, a personal safety planner. Now I know that probably looks specifically more at kind of the victim situation involved, but all of those elements, and we can look at this too if we're in that support team of what really would be safe. And to your point, it may not be being in the home with me. I mean, we hear about this with police, right? The most dangerous responses to go to are DV responses because of the escalation happening at that time. You see the good Samaritan that pulls over to help the woman that's been thrown out of a car. So what does that planner look like? What are some of the things that even the support group should think about when they're considering what is actual safety for this person and for myself?

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56:11  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Yeah, it's a really good point. Going back to this planner, I didn't get the chance to actually go through and click through it and see, and I can't wait to do that because, as somebody who has done an absurd amount of safety planning with people, it is not, just like we've said so many times already, it is not one size fits all. Things that might help safety planning with one person might not help another. So this tool is creating your own personalized safety plan and I really look forward to going in and plugging all the things and seeing what it comes up with. This might be a good thing for support system people of like putting in some of the things that they might know about the individual just to get some ideas. I know there's a lot of mixed feelings about AI. I don't really know much about it or use it very much, but I assume you could probably look at some safety planning ideas on there. Like trying to widen some of your ideas of what safety planning might look like. Like as much as I want to, if I see somebody like you said on the side of the road and someone's getting yelled at and getting hit, as much as I would like to intervene, as much as I would like my husband to intervene, bad idea. You don't know what you're getting involved in. You don't know what that person is going to experience when they get home because you got involved. Like, it's really something to keep in mind safety wise for yourself and your family primarily, but in the system around you of what kind of damage can be caused that you don't have any idea about. My advice is keep walking. And that's terrible. I don't even know about calling the police to be honest. You have to kind of play it by ear. And I'm not saying avoid someone getting hurt in the street, but if it's something that's not a clear cut, someone's getting kicked while they're down thing, it could create a lot of problems for them when they get home and the door gets locked.

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58:31  Natalie Bulger

Yeah. So there's a lot of things to assess or to expand awareness on because I think we tend to jump right to the thing we're seeing and the gut reaction that it pulls on us. But as you mentioned in the last episode, even as much as a soft place versus a hard place of where that person is at or what they're surrounded by, address is known, address is not known. Staying at a hotel that has cameras versus staying at a home that may or may not have cameras. And some of those, sure, are to be financially limiting on what you have the options to do, but that goes back to the resources that you've talked about. That if you've reached that kind of step, there are places you can go, people you can talk to, to hopefully help assist with that. And it doesn't mean going to a shelter where you're in a giant room with all these other people, which is the probably the media idea that's been pushed out for so long.

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59:29  Natalie Bulger

The last major thing I wanted to touch on and you got me thinking about it was we talked about these kind of relationships a little bit more and how nuanced they can be. I think we're entering this will air afterwards, but we're entering Easter as we record this. And you think of families around or you're meeting up with folks, you think the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, I have all the high school friends get back together. And you may have set boundaries with someone that no one else has. And so if it's a sibling, if it's someone that's close, that's coming to those holiday events or coming to those things, and all of a sudden, now you're the one that feels a little isolated, a little off, maybe because you're the only one that knows what's been going on, or you're the only one that's taken this stance and everyone else is like, no, no, we're gonna support them and look this way and do this thing. That can be isolating. It can create helplessness, I think, in that person. And what are some of the recommendations that we may have of how to look out for ourselves? So we've done this work. Maybe it looks OK when we're looking at the vacuum of us and the one person that's associated with it that we're involved in. But there is a unit, usually. And so you can't always hold those extreme boundaries in place. And how do we navigate with those? What are some of the assessments that we might want to do in those scenarios?

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62:00  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Not a one size fits all. I would say act normal. If you have a good enough dialogue with the individual who's in the relationship, obviously talking privately and being cautious about how you talk privately. Maybe they have an email that's safe that they can access at a certain place or you don't want to do things that will put somebody at risk of them going in their phone and seeing and stuff like that. So one, safely and privately, if there's any way that you can say, hey, how do you want me to act around what's his face? You know I hate the dude, but I love you, we're going to dinner, what do you want me to do? Don't say any passive aggressive things, don't whatever. So if you have that type of relationship, talk about it, safely. If not, if it doesn't feel safe, or if you have some ideas that things are going on and it's not out in the open, I would say having a plan with yourself or who you're going with. So that could look like, let's say if it's you and your husband are going to a dinner or something, hey, let's have an out, or let's have a word that, and you can even do that in just a social situation that's annoying or boring, but let's have an out. We're going to go see a movie at this time, even if you're not going, right? But get yourself some boundaries and parameters to leave, maybe even a word that you guys say to each other that's like, we're wrapping up in 15 minutes, whatever that might be, might be a good thing to talk to your kids. If you're bringing kids of like, hey, uncle so and so, or whatever it might be acting A, B, and C, or if you see anything, tell mom or dad, but don't anybody else, whatever it might be, you might need to educate your kids about what's normal, what isn't, and what to do. But going in with a plan and trying to stick to it. It's not being a sellout by being around an individual that has an abuser. In fact, the reason I'm around you with this abuser is because I love you. And sometimes when we walk away, it's because I love myself more. And that's okay too.

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65:00  Natalie Bulger

Yeah. Well, and it just takes me back again to doing those outreaches as the, I'm not the person that's in the situation, but I can still utilize those resources because I can also think of instances the first time you find out and you call mom and you go, mom, did you have any idea this was going on with Jane and Joe? And now all of a sudden mom's calling Jane and now all of a sudden there's a new dynamic that's created. So, the domino effect of some of these things. And I think what you mentioned in a few times now and in the first episode too, is this is so unpredictable. And we don't have a lens into what happens when the door closes and we're on the outside and that internal dynamic is now in play. And so I have no idea if a color that I said all of a sudden triggered. Because there was a fight yesterday over something with that color clothes. And now it's like, did you tell them about that? And you can't get caught up in the assumptions. But I think if we have the best good faith of realizing where is my boundary, and again, it's not my responsibility to go get the whole family together and have this whole conversation or get the whole friend group together and talk about this and come up with a plan for how we save them. You can't help someone that doesn't want to help, you can be prepared to do that and that preparation may look different over time.

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66:40  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Yes, and there might be certain family members where mom tells everybody everything or Sally can't keep her mouth shut or whatever that maybe if you find out that your sister is in an abusive relationship that you make a deal with her I'm not saying anything to mom you have my word. It's not because it's not important to tell mom it's because it's not safe to tell mom and mom might be good intentioned but this is where the getting your own support is so important and a reminder these victim service provider places, it's no cost to anyone. So it doesn't cost you money as the sister. It doesn't cost you money as the mother. You go for free. There is no record of insurance. There's no, this is an off the record appointment every time you go. So get guidance.

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68:00  Natalie Bulger

And that piece of look at it through the lens of the safety, I think, is the differentiating factor between it's a hush-hush. I'm complacent, or I'm a part of this, in keeping this hidden. I'm not saying anything today because today I don't know if it's safe to say anything. And maybe it's not safe in a lot of times, but I think if we're attuned enough, there's probably a door that opens with maybe the third sister in the house. It's just like, she's been acting real weird. And it's like, I think we should have a, I think you and I should have a talk about this. And then you've at least set the tone a little bit differently for that. So not to end on probably what is probably what I feel is probably one of the more morbid notes, but we've talked about the mortality component that comes with this, that there is chance of death in situations that escalate to that level that you've started to see some of these signs. And that support team that's around, I think that's an example of where there's a lot of survivor guilt or there's a lot of shame over, didn't intervene. I just didn't go in myself and do something to that abuser that was there. I could have stopped this, but hindsight's 20-20, right? And you said a few times, we're adults and adults make decisions. So what's the message to folks that are like tomorrow, this safety may not exist and what if I lose them? What if I lose my loved one? Did I do enough? How do I live with that? Like all of those pieces that could come up. What are some things they should remember? Especially if there's someone that said, I backed off significantly and didn't maybe do what the savior superhero would have done if they were bullies.

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70:00  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Well, superheroes, I mean, we see these movies all the time. They're ruining cities and people are, like how many casualties, right? So, it's really make believe this idea of going in, like it's really well intentioned, like I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna save the day and I'm gonna do this. No, we need to sit back and assess. And it's about assessing safety and supporting ourselves and really zooming out for a second, trying to let the dust settle as much as you can and doing what you can and knowing that you're limited. We talked about addiction last time, how many people and especially in our area, for example, everybody knows somebody who's had an addiction issue or overdose and died in this area that you can go all day through all the lists of things that you could have done, the things that you should have done, and all of those things. At the end of the day, people do what people do. They are adults. You have to look out for your own safety and what's best for you and your family. Knowing that these resources exist is everything. That's why the lethality assessments we talked about last time are so important because if they're screening for risk of lethality, they want to put people in connection with places like we've talked about because it increases the likelihood of survival significantly. You can only do so much. We don't want to isolate these individuals, but if staying connected with them puts you at risk, your kids at risk, your mental health at risk, we need to really do our own work, whether that's at a place like Blackburn Center or a DV place to see where we land and what we can accept. Like, accept is something I wrote down a lot that we didn't bring up, is that people have a really hard time accepting sexual violence, domestic violence, intimate partner violence. Acceptance does not mean something's okay. It means it's real. That's it. So we're not saying that we're accepting that Johnny hit Sally and they're in, no, we're accepting that this is the reality of their relationship. Now what? So don't be a superhero, step back, look at the full picture, get resources from the right places, and then you might need to pivot and adjust as needed and accept that there's only so much that you can do. I mean, it sucks. It's a really hopeless feeling. Like, as somebody who is a provider, in this realm, it's so hard because I can sit with people and just see how lovely they are and how wonderful they are and like I just want to rip them out of these situations but like I said at least seven times to leave like it's a it's a path.

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73:00  Natalie Bulger

Yeah. Well, and we can't let our nostalgia get in the way either, right? So I don't want to say the damage is done in many cases. And even if that person leaves that relationship, they're not going to be the same again. And maybe they do need to move across the country for that start, or they do need to have a different set of people in their life, especially if there's family components involved. So I think no matter what, once you realize that someone you love is in a relationship like this, there's always going to be grief that comes with it. Grief for who that person, you thought that person was gonna be, grief for the relationship maybe you thought they were gonna have. And ultimately, in a worst case scenario, potentially grief over the complete and total loss of them. But no matter what, acknowledging the fact that tomorrow you just don't wake up and everything's how it was a year ago.

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74:00  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Well, nothing works like that. It goes both ways. That's a conversation that I have with people a lot where they say, well, I just wish I could be the person that I was before. And it's something I always say, too, of like, you want to fit into the jeans you wore in high school. Why are you 35 wearing 14 year old jeans? We grow and we change and bad things shape us. Good things shape us. And we are who we are now because of our experiences and we need to do the work to be able to heal and integrate what we have learned into this new version that we are. So it's not even just the bad things. You go on a lovely vacation with your partner, that changes you, it's all cumulative.

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75:00  Natalie Bulger

So I think it's a beautiful note to end on, which is accepting that this is a life-changing thing to go through, not only for the people that are in it, but for the people that are around it and adjacent to it. And that may look a little different when the crisis is done, when the storm calms down and the dirt stuff settles and everything. It's okay that it's not gonna look the same. Think to your point, the ultimate end goal for everyone in this is the safety of the people that are involved. And so as we wrap, because somehow we're already almost at an hour again on the second part of this conversation, just again, a little reminder of the resources that are out there, because we've tapped them now. The first time around, I think we really drove home, send these to someone you know that might need them. But now I wanna be like, also go educate yourself on them because if you don't speak that language, it's harder almost to be able to talk to people about it when it's just kind of like, read this book, go to this website. Like having some type of working knowledge that you can be there at least and aware if not, assisting with like, here's where I think you might want to start or here's the safety plan template that you can fill out.

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76:40  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Really good points. I think the one thing is you don't know, you don't know. There's no dumb questions. Educate yourself. Check where you're getting your information from. With the way that things have gone online, it can sometimes be hard to find where you're getting accurate information. So looking at the domestic violence hotline website, if you type into Google domestic violence hotline, the hotline website is going to come up. It's going to have all of these resources. And there's always like a quick exit option that they instruct on the main page that you can get out quickly without a trace. So doing that and learning about the resources, there's things locally every county at least in our state has one that's covered. I don't know nationally about that, but that's where the hotline is going to be able to help to do that. And then places that provide domestic violence specific services also help with name changes and not having to publish that in the newspaper like they can help you find legal assistance to do that. They can help you not having your address being public. That's another resource that people aren't aware of. Educating new partners about your history and what that might look like both in the bedroom but power dynamics wise. And educating your kids, especially after leaving a relationship, getting them some therapy, things like EMDR and trauma work, even though you've left a relationship and you are safe, our bodies don't always know that. So we have to kind of clean that up and do that work. So do your kids, maybe so does your mom, so does your sister, whatever it might be. And just do what you can to take care of yourself and not get lost.

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78:30  Natalie Bulger

Well, thank you, Sarah. And I did click through quickly as you were going through those resources on that safety plan. And they are bite sized chunks of little information to put in. And I think that's really helpful to get that in the end of what all that might look like. But when you're going through a huge survey to fill out and it's 15 pages, it gets intimidating really fast. And so if you looked at the old PDFs that are on there, and some of this doesn't apply to me. And so the very first thing was, you have children? You have a home? Those kind of stuff. So I think it's good. You can click through it without filling it out so you can at least see the information that it collects. And maybe you can even start it on behalf of someone is what it looks like. And then just be like, hey, has this ever happened or who do you talk to? And before you know it, you've at least given them a starting point for some of that. And in the end, you are important to us as individuals. As hard as it may be to not sacrifice ourselves on the behalf of others that we love. We got to remember what the end goal is and it's for us to see tomorrow and it's for us to keep going and that can be tough but that's why those objective resources are out there. That's why they have been made more accessible over time.

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79:20  Natalie Bulger

Again, all of this is going to be in the show notes, so you'll be able to get to it. It's also now on the website. So I've got a website link that all the episodes go to, and those links will be on there too. And the good thing is it's my consulting site, so it's a little back door to get into different things. But Sarah, thank you so much for coming on, continuing this conversation. And let's just say it's not done. As you mentioned, we could talk about this a lot longer. There are so many things that you can dive into the nitty-gritty on. And if it's something that's resonated with you, if it's something that's resonated based on someone that you love or care for, there is help. You are not alone. And we hope that you'll at least take that first step into looking out for yourself and to helping others be able to get that power back that they may not have in a way that is sustainable long-term.

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79:29  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Thank you. I just think going back to the part about empowering is know what power that we have. You know, don't have to be a white guy, right, to have power. Like we have power in the jokes we laugh at. We have power in the media that we consume. We have power in our words and what we support and what we don't support. This looks like movies, music, media, all of that. Everyone talks about this idea of the white guy's power and privilege. We all can speak up and we can all say what's right and wrong. Next time you hear something, maybe speak up.

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79:00  Natalie Bulger

I love that. And it's a good reminder for all of us that every one of those choices is a little bit of power and we might ignore it, but when we add it all up, maybe it gives us a little more of a boost that we needed in that day. So thank you again, Sarah, for bringing your expertise, your knowledge to this conversation. I know I have learned a lot and had a new kind of perspective on so many things. And I'm sure those that are listening have as well. So we might talk again before too long, depending on feedback from this episode. But thanks everyone for listening in and we hope you will join again soon for another episode of Motivation N'at.

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80:00  Sarah Ludwig, LPC

Thank you.