Episode 31 - Mia-Ann Spadafora
I'd Like to Use a Lifeline:
Phone-A-Mentor
Motivation N'at Podcast
Full Transcript
Natalie Bulger
0:01
Hey there everyone, welcome back to another episode of Motivation N'at. And today's might sound a little bit goofy for folks because Mia-Ann, my guest today, was here in person. We recorded the most awesome conversation and episode and I was so pumped. I went in to edit it and there was no audio track. So we're gonna attempt to recreate that excitement that we had when we were kind of sitting across from each other.
Just a few weeks ago over the virtual platform of things. And hopefully not only will we still hit on some of the great components that we brought up the first time around that no one else got to hear but us, but there might even be a couple new things now that we kind of talked things out the first time around. And I think it's going to be a great conversation about mentorship, about trusting instincts, about learning that this kind of growth pathway isn't always just one direction or even a singular kind of coach student feel. And that's because, and I'll let Mia-Ann introduce herself in a second, but Mia-Ann is one of the mentees that I had through the University of Pittsburgh graduate program for health administration, which I was a grad from in 2012. And then Mia-Ann followed about 10 years later, just about, and was really excited to get paired with students every time around. But this has been one that has just had so many kind of alignments and similarities. Like I live in the town that Mia-Ann grew up in now and that wasn't where we were when we first met and all of these pieces. I'm just really, really excited. And it's also because we get to bring a little bit of perspective. You're down in Texas now. So you've seen kind of two healthcare hub areas, you know, that you've been able to reflect on really early in your career, which I think is just awesome. And for any young early careerist in healthcare or really any line, this is going to be great. So, without further ado, Mia-Ann, introduce yourself to the listeners. Who are you? Where do you come from? What kind of things are you doing now? And then we'll dive into what this last four-ish, five years of journey have been and even before that for you because I know there's a lot of things that play into things.
Mia-Ann
2:17
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here again, even if it looks a little bit different. But yeah, so I grew up in a small town outside of Pittsburgh, about an hour outside and loved it. Didn't really know what I wanted to do when I grew up. I knew I wanted to go into business, but always had a passion for helping others. So when I was in college, I thought for sure I was gonna come back home and maybe work for the family business, didn't really know what I was gonna do. And then I heard a professor talk about healthcare administration. And I didn't even know that was a thing in college until I was in my second year and he was talking about it and it just kind of clicked and all made sense. And I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. And COVID hit and it kind of all fell into place where I was able to graduate early and luckily got accepted into the Pitt program, University of Pittsburgh MHA program. And that's where we met, which was wonderful and had an amazing experience there. Was able to do an extended administrative residency at a local hospital, was offered a full-time job there while I was still in grad school doing manager of patient access, which taught me a lot. I was a leader for the first time, managing 30 plus direct reports, which was a lot being 22, managing people that were mostly older than you. And you know, I always learned about that in classes, but that's different when you're doing it. But it was a great experience and then decided that I wanted to move down to Texas, which was not what I was expecting to do. But there's a couple points in my life where I was like, I'm gonna move down. I thought it was gonna be Houston where I was gonna live. Didn't end up moving there, but have loved it. I'm a practice administrator in the ambulatory setting for a couple of different practices and really do enjoy it being able to help so many people.
Natalie Bulger
4:21
I love it. And we're going to get into a couple of the things you hit on — one, which is not only did you go straight from undergrad into grad, but you did it earlier than a lot of people do. And that brings on its own unique challenges. I was not in that boat. I had worked for a couple of years and ended up going back. And it's an interesting dynamic when you're in a class with people that have been in kind of the nine to five, and now they're coming back to get this degree so they can further. And those that are just like, no, I know this is what I want to do, and this is the direction I'm going. But then kind of that little bit of imposter syndrome, that doubt that creeps in of like, but now I don't have any job experience and I'm trying to apply to these jobs, like you said, where you're managing 30 people — and how do you justify that? And then, I mean, just the whole kind of decisions to move and change. And I'm a full proponent of when you do that early in your career, you know if that's gonna be something that works for you or you're gonna be like, no, I just wanna find somewhere and not kind of uproot again or anything like that. And the longer you go in one place, the harder it is to kind of make those big decisions. So thrilled that you took the leap and we'll hash out a little bit about what those conversations were like when they were happening. But talk a little bit about kind of the initial piece of getting into grad school — you're there early. And it was the first time you and I sat down and talked where it was this kind of conversation of, I don't know, did I answer my interview questions correctly? How do I go about explaining what my competencies are when I haven't tested them in the places that these people are interviewing me for?
Mia-Ann
5:59
Yeah, that first conversation with you was right — I was doing my extended administrative interviews and that was the first time that I really interviewed for a corporate position. Before it was school interviews, job interviews within the school, family businesses, which I interviewed to an extent for, but nothing that you have to prepare a cover letter and do all of that stuff for. I remember there was a question that they asked me and it was about why I wanted to get into healthcare. And a lot of my peers had very sentimental and really real experiences within the healthcare market, either to themselves or a close family member. I pulled on one from whenever I was young about a family member and I felt like I shared too much. And that was really hard for me because I never really like to talk about myself in that way whenever it comes to job interviews. I like to keep it a little bit more professional. But you taught me and we talked a lot about how making those connections and showing that I'm a real person helps. And I've carried that with me through all of my job interviews — making sure that I connect in some sort of way because that is who I am. I am a very personable person whenever it comes to my job. I know people say don't make friends with your employees or don't get too close to them. I think, yes, there's a level there, but I also want them to know that I'm here for them and I do care about them and that's just the person that I am. So that's helped me a lot and that was a lot of our first conversation, but it was hard to know where that line was at first. And it's something that, you know, I think I still go back and forth on at times whenever I'm interviewing, but I try my best to make sure they know who I am as a person too.
Natalie Bulger
7:46
Yeah, it's tough because there are kind of groupings, right? There's being memorable, there is oversharing, there is being relatable. And those aren't all the same things. They're also not mutually exclusive. You can be memorable because you overshared and also someone was like, my God, I've been there too. And you can kind of parse pieces out of that a little bit. And I think early on, it's so easy to go, did I go a little bit too far in an eagerness to make sure that they remember who I am versus that kind of gut feeling of, there was a whole lot more of that story. I probably could have pulled out and given to people — I didn't do it. And that idea of self-editing — it takes practice to do that. So I think it's completely natural to question it the first few times when you're like, so I shared this story and I got a little emotional and maybe I shouldn't have, but you learn the more you do it. And I'm curious — you've obviously had more interviews since then, you've had more conversations with people. Do you feel like you've kind of found a place that you're like, right, these are my boundaries for when I'm trying to share about my desires, my kind of background, all of those things — the more that you've gone down this pathway?
Mia-Ann
9:05
Absolutely, yes. I've learned, I think, what truly makes me memorable or relatable in these situations and also makes me qualified for the role. So I know that I'm still — I don't have a lot of experience, I'm still in that bubble of like, I'm on the cusp for a lot of positions — but making yourself qualified for the role is a little bit different. So I use my experiences. I relate often to being the oldest of four girls because there's a lot there and I love it and I wouldn't trade it for the world, but there was a lot of leadership qualities that I have now because of my sisters. Just going through life together has been so fun, but I've been able to pull back on a lot of experiences for that throughout my time in leadership. So figuring out a way to make that into the conversation, or talking about that, makes me able to talk about my personal side of things, but also help show some additional leadership qualities and skills that I have.
Natalie Bulger
10:05
And I want to touch on some of the things that you definitely brought in even at the very beginning before you ever stepped foot at working in a hospital. And this is one of the times where I'm glad I've done a couple other episodes before we re-recorded again. Because I was speaking to Dr. Miko Rose at IUP who's running their new — well, starting up their new proposed college for osteopathic medicine. And she said, people that have worked in customer service have a different skill set. And that's waitresses, retail, any kind of complaints department, anything like that. And I know that's kind of where you came from — restaurant industry, just kind of like me, spent a whole lifetime kind of there. And once you deal with an angry cook, a stressed out front manager and vendors who aren't delivering, and then your tables who are mad they didn't get the right ranch dressing, as you kind of see this — now you're working with patients and your colleagues are, you know, professionals, RNs, but they're also, you know, front staff and things like that. Does it feel more similar than you might have thought initially when you were trying to make those connections of what are some of the skills I already have in my back pocket?
Mia-Ann
11:18
Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest thing I learned from the food industry was you need to hear them out — what the problem is — but then come up with a solution. And it's the same thing in healthcare. Before I go into any conversation where I know somebody's upset, I'm like, what are our options? What can we do for them? And the food industry is the same thing. Like how much are we gonna take off their bill? Do we need to comp the whole thing? Right, like there were different things that we did — or do we need to remake the meal again? It's the same thing in healthcare — trying to figure out how to offer solutions. And having that experience in my back pocket has given me so much more — I'm blanking on the word, I apologize — it's given me more ability and confidence in handling those situations. I think more so than I watched some other people do it who don't have that experience. They have to learn that. And it just takes time sometimes, but some people are just natural at it, which — I was not at first, so I had to learn that. And it's definitely something I rely on heavily every week. Something comes up because I understand parents especially are very concerned about their kids and working in pediatrics, that is something you run into a lot. I'm sure in the adult world as well. It is something that comes across with loved ones. So it's something that we have to pull on a lot.
Natalie Bulger
12:43
And I like that you mentioned listening to things first because the gut reaction — especially when you're an early server or waitress and early on in any type of people-focused career — is to say, "I'm sorry." And one thing I've learned in a lot of conversations lately has been, "I'm sorry" can be very powerful in some instances if you can control the resolution or if it was something on your end in the first place. You spill a drink on someone — my gosh, I'm so sorry. But if something comes out and it wasn't yours, it's not always straight to whose fault was it. It's also not you taking full responsibility for everything, because ultimately that piece of just take a beat and listen — and they may not even be looking for "I'm sorry," to your point. They're just looking for the simple resolution. What's the thing that now puts me back on track where I need to be? And there are a lot of ways — and I think this is where Dr. Rose was going — of just reading the room. And you become so kind of alert and attuned — this table over here doesn't want me coming over. Like they're good. They will flag me down if they need something. They just want to have a conversation and sit here for a bit. This other one, I'm gonna need to check in on constantly — there's a kiddo, there's things. And same kind of thing with patients. There are patients who just want to get their stuff and get out of there. And then there's other ones who need a little hand holding. Being able to pick up on that. And I think what I take from this is if you can do a quick stint in retail or in a restaurant, do it — get a little bit of it under your belt. If nothing else, you're gonna have awesome stories to tell because there is never a calm day. But I find myself going back to that a lot and thinking of, how would I have dealt with a really frustrating table — including when do you ask for the manager? Like, let me get someone else to help you with that. Tell me a little bit about — and I'm curious from your kind of early stages — when did you feel like you needed to bring someone else in to support you, especially in the work environment? And then we'll get into the mentorship side. You know, hey, I feel like I'm out of my league. And what was that — how have you learned to navigate that a little bit? Because it can be really intimidating at first to feel like I failed, you know, gosh, I can't handle this by myself. My boss is going to think I'm incompetent. But in reality, they also could be like, why did you not come to me sooner? We could have fixed this.
Mia-Ann
15:03
Yeah, no, there's been a lot of lessons in that. I think especially with my first job as a manager, I relied heavily — I was very fortunate that my mentor at my residency was my senior director of my role. So I got very close to my director and relied on her for a lot of advice, but I was still relying in a mentorship kind of way to my senior director. And I remember this one time an employee — I was supporting them accountable for time in attendance, and anybody that knows me knows that I'm — if we're not here on time, we can't take care of our patients — with understanding of life and everything that happens. And I was holding an employee accountable and they said some things to me and gave me some feedback that I was very shocked by and was concerned with how I moved forward with the situation.
Just based off of some of the things they were saying. So pulling my leadership into that in that moment to A, give me advice on how I can better handle the situation and grow from it, but then also to help be part of conversations moving forward to protect myself and the employee. So there was a lot of learning moments like that of how do I make the situation better for the employee while also making sure that we're holding our employees accountable, but making sure I'm fair about it and creating that welcoming culture and environment for everybody to speak up. I was appreciative of the feedback, but there's also times that you get feedback that my boss was like, I don't know where that's coming from — I think they're upset that they're getting into some trouble type of situation. So learning how to navigate that and getting people to come into the room with you. Sometimes I have my peers come in just to witness a conversation so I can get feedback on it, especially if I have supervisors underneath me. We call it a coaching moment — so they come in, they learn how to have conversations, but they're also there to provide me feedback. So I do that sometimes as well just for an ongoing learning moment and environment. But there have been times even in my current job where there are situations and I'm like, I know this is going to go further, so I'm looping you in on it now. If there's a formal complaint filed, I tried my best to handle it the way that I could, but I might need some help having this conversation with this parent or with this employee to try and deescalate the situation further. And it is hard to have to go to your boss and say, I think I need help, I didn't do a good job. But I think it's also building those relationships and that trust with your leader so they know that you gave it everything you could, you did what you could. And some situations are just tougher or we're not as prepared for it — and that's okay. We learn from them and we adjust moving forward. It's a challenging spot and it definitely is a confidence drainer at times, but as long as you get right back up and you know that you've had success stories in the past and you remind yourself of that, I think you can keep on moving.
Natalie Bulger
18:06
And you bring up — and it's kind of unsaid — but when you graduate from especially a master's program, you generally are landing as an early careerist in a mid-manager role. So you're supervising people. You're also probably five layers down under the CEO, if not more. And so there's this weird accountability that's been thrust on you kind of from the start — not only are you expected to be an expert in your general area that you've been brought on for, you're expected to know how to manage people of all different generations, as we kind of mentioned earlier on. And then a standpoint of not only being accountable to those that report to you in that kind of leadership role, but then having to flip that script and be one of the people that's reporting up further through the layers of the organization that have different sets of expectations — and with that translation, you can't teach that in school. That is one of the tough pieces for sure. And you know, in a world where you are dealing with 30 different personalities right off the bat and then you've got 30 different personalities that are kind of above, playing their own game of chess and pulling in different directions — where are some of those, I don't want to say almost like self-care moments of, all right, there's a lot going on right now, I've got kind of everything happening in every direction. What did you do for yourself to just kind of pause and give a little grace in that moment? Or is that something you had to learn to do as time has gone on?
Mia-Ann
19:42
Yeah, had to learn that big time. I think with my first job, I was doing school full time and this management position full time. So I was feeling pressure from so many different aspects. Like all throughout the day I was feeling pressure from school, feeling pressure from my leaders, but also my employees. So it was just like a lot going on and those days were long and they were hard. And I don't think I prioritized self care in the way that I should have just because that was my first real experience with being pulled in so many different directions — emotionally and physically. So adjusting to that with this current role, I've prioritized my home life so much more, which has been a game changer for me. Like coming home and cooking dinner and reading and truly unplugging. My current job gave us the option of having work phones, which was also a game changer for me. Like I don't have any work associated with my personal phone. So I love to travel, especially long weekend trips. So my phone is either off or it doesn't come with me and I don't touch it until I'm back in town the night before work. So it's very much like setting those boundaries of, hey, I'm not answering on the weekend. If you need something, it's going to have to wait until Sunday night or Monday morning is when I'll get back to you. And really setting that to highlight and protect my time, but then also show my dedication to work. When I'm at work, it's fully work — and creating that separation has been super important for me and has helped me with that self care stuff. Also, sometimes when I'm at work and I need to focus on stuff that higher leaders need or the organization as a whole, I have to shut my door. That is my time because if not, it's a revolving door that people just continue to come into, which I love and I love connecting with my employees. But I want to be there for them — there's just a time. We have to shut the door to protect that time. Allow me to focus on the bigger picture of the organization and my responsibilities there as well.
Natalie Bulger
21:50
The component of leaving the phone at home — this is, I feel like, a new thing in the last 10 years, definitely building that you're always accessible and you're always available. And I know you're the generation after me, but all these funny kind of things right now happening on social media to look back to 2016. And then people are like, what about 2006? And what about 1996? And I'm like, oh gosh, those were the days where you literally could not be contacted unless on your home phone on a weekend, and then someone still had to be nearby. And yes, we made a lot of progress in our ability to have higher velocity of momentum of things, right? But we were still doing really good care in those days. We were still taking care of patients, doing healthcare, finding new advances. And so I'm hopeful that setting those boundaries — especially in the kind of the new management role that's coming up, which is one, figured out the only way we're going to stay sane is by implementing this ourselves and then leading as those role models to others of — you're not going to get me because I'm in Cancun, full stop, you know, for three days. Give me a second to sit in the sun. And by the way, when you go on your trip next week, don't answer an email — just full stop — because we can say it all the time, but until we actually start practicing it, it's really hard because it's very much a do what I say, not what I do element. And I'm still learning that too. And that's — I want to touch on that because we may have been set up as a mentor mentee relationship, but I have told you — I've told a few of my other mentees over time — I learned just as much from you all and your ability to implement or ask the questions or do the things than you've probably learned from me along the way. And it becomes a very two-way street. So, I'm curious — just when you came into your first formal mentorship through the school and now the mentors that you've picked up along the way — what types of mentorship relationships have you sought out? How have your expectations changed over time? Are they all the same?
Mia-Ann
23:53
I wish more were like you in the world — being so truthful and honest — and I think that's the number one thing that I look for. You were my first formal mentor. So there were some in college that I leaned on like our professors and stuff, but having like a formal mentor that you can really bounce things off of was life-changing to say the least. I mean you were there for so many ups and downs of all of my decisions over the past few years. So I greatly appreciate that and I've learned so much. I think carrying that with me through new mentors and new relationships is making sure that they're giving honest feedback. And one thing I always remember from you is — I think it was the first time we sat down and you were like, don't just come to me with the bad, come to me with the good as well. And that's something that I continue to carry. But I think that, like I said, the number one thing I look for is really truthful honesty — and being not afraid to give me the — sometimes it can be hurtful feedback, in the right way, right? Constructive criticism is something I really look for. And I think as mentors, we can sometimes get into a situation where we want to tell them what they want to hear because we want to continue on that relationship, but that's not doing anybody any good. So it's something that I hold to a pretty high standard whenever I'm A, being a mentor, or seeking out somebody to mentor me through something.
Natalie Bulger
25:21
Now I'll give you credit — you showed up to pretty much every mentorship official meeting with a list of things that you wanted to go through. So you were really prepared and I appreciated that. For me it's fun. It's like, oh, what's she going to bring this time to chat about? And it was good, bad, ugly across the board. It wasn't like it was always like, well, here's the list of things that I just don't know how to handle. It was, oh, here's a win that I had and here's some other things. And I think that's really great. And it also was fine when we would have just random moments. Be at the school for something and we'd run into each other. Or my favorite story is after I broke my toe and I'm sitting in the town that you grew up in and you're like, I'm in town, I'm getting ready to drive to Texas. Like, you know, I'll just stop over. And we sat on the porch and just chatted about just random things. And I think that's the beauty of when you have those relationships that become very two-way street. And I guess this is my pitch to mentors — and curious because I'm sure you're mentoring a bit now too — that we be open to that, that there is a component of I don't have every answer because I really don't. And there are a lot of times where I would give advice to you and be like, so this is what I did and this is why it was not the thing to do. I don't recommend it — learn from me and my mistakes before you make them. But as you've now switched into the mentor role in some capacity, I'm sure — what are some of the things that maybe your mentees are teaching you about kind of how you approach or what to do or reflections on how you've done things in the past?
Mia-Ann
26:53
Yeah, there's been a couple. I think the biggest one for me that I think I fell out of whenever I moved to Texas was networking. Like in grad school, you're set up with so many situations where you can network and meet people and just create mentors that way or relationships, future opportunities, so on and so forth. When you move to a new city, that's something that we hear a lot — like, you should be networking, meeting people. But I was so focused when I came here to create my community outside of work, because that was super important — I didn't know many people when I moved here — that I haven't created a lot of time spent networking outside of my organization. So that's something that my mentees have really helped me see the importance of, especially as they're going through job applications and different things. Like the amount — one I met through a LinkedIn message, she messaged me and I was like, wow, like you're really putting yourself out there and I love it. And it's just kind of helped me reframe what I'm doing and how I need to continue. It's been a good reminder, I should say, of the importance of networking and making those connections outside of where you currently are.
Natalie Bulger
28:08
Now on that same note though, it's really great to have non-healthcare or non-industry related networks too, right? So healthcare is business as much as we don't want to think that it is. It is a business where we provide a service, we get paid for said service, we have rules and regulations that we abide to. So it is very similar. We always joke that people aren't widgets, but we're still doing kind of a same process as factories and things like that. You have an expectation on what you produce. So who have been some — not to name drop, but what other industries do you meet people in and you're kind of like, we have the same thing going on, this might work out in a couple different ways?
Mia-Ann
28:48
There's been — I mean, like the food industry, I think is always one because you're dealing with people, or any type of service industry. There was somebody I met from American Airlines in the customer service department and I was like, wow, I totally understand what you're saying right now. But also my boyfriend is in oil and gas. So I meet a lot of people from that industry and it's very interesting. My favorite question to ask when I meet them — because it's like a whole different world to me, right? Like I didn't know anything moving to Texas. It's a lot of what Texas is. And asking them like, what made you start the company? Or like, what made you get into this — and learning from their risks and their stories of how they got to where they are. I love asking that question with anybody. I've just had more experience asking it with oil and gas professionals, but being able to do that with anybody that comes into my path has been so encouraging and then also learning lessons from them. It's not a formal mentorship — you're seeking advice in a way that people love talking about themselves. So when you ask that question, you're able to gain stuff, but they're feeling good about doing it as well. So that's been fun to do and just being able to relate with them — like managing people, that's something that's pretty universal. It might be in different capacities and frontline staff is very different than what they do, maybe sitting in an office of a big corporation, or design or anything like that. It's very, very different, but managing people in leadership at the end of the day is still leadership. It doesn't matter what industry you're in. So hearing those stories is always fascinating to me and something I love to seek out whenever, like over a dinner conversation or wherever.
Natalie Bulger
30:34
Yeah, and they're still dealing with a skilled set of workers versus administrative, right? So the thing that you've probably seen — I've definitely seen — I don't have a clinical background. We're coming in as people that very much have trained on the business, on the administrative side, maybe touched kind of at the edges, knowing something about social work or about caregiving. And we're trying to work with people that have spent their life educating on how to do pick lines, how to read specific graphs, how to take certain procedures and do it. And so this component of do you really understand me or not and how to build that trust is probably not a whole lot different than someone who knows how to work a mechanical drill at an oil site versus the guy who comes in the suit and they're like, well, are you going to be able to get in here and know what tools to use or know how to fix this if something ruptures or anything? So that ability to still learn — how do you create that trust? How do you create that culture within the organization to have dedicated people who understand what they're there for and what their goals are, whether they're profit driven or care driven. So I love that. I love that analogy of matching the two. We know you're in Texas now. We got to talk about the whole piece because this was like — I feel like a good five months of the discussions that we had up until your move — of am I going to leave? Is this the right decision? How the heck did I even get to this place in the first place? Because this wasn't necessarily — you mentioned Houston — but it's not like there was like this big plan of, hey, I'm gonna go to that point. It kind of fell in your lap a little bit, but you used your network. So talk to us a little bit about what that journey was, because I know it pulled you in a couple of different directions of which way am I going?
Mia-Ann
32:17
Yeah, I was not expecting to move. I moved back to Pittsburgh because of my family and I wanted to be closer with them. Went to school undergrad in North Carolina and I was like, I think it's time to go back home. But always, I think deep down, knew that I wasn't going to be in Pennsylvania for a long time. But when I was in grad school, like, I'm staying here forever. I love where I live, like I never want to move. Pittsburgh's the greatest thing ever. And it truly is — I love it to this day. I still miss it. But I just felt that there were more opportunities out there for me. And that was a hard thing to wrestle with. Like, do I leave my family? Do I leave this job that I feel very secure in? I love my team. But there were a couple of things happening within where I was that I wasn't fully on board with. And so it kind of when those things happen, it kind of opens your eyes to what else is out there and asking those questions. And I had a mentor from — we were down in Texas for a case competition during grad school — our director of the school, Dr. Broom, who we love, was like, hey, I think you should reach out to this healthcare executive that is in pediatrics just to get another set of eyes in an organization, just to have a connection out there. And I was like, wait, that's a really good idea. So I did, and he has been wonderful. He's been a great mentor to me. And I had the opportunity to come down and look at the organization and just shadow for a day. And when I came down — when I was flying in — I was like, I'm going purely for the experience, not moving here. Like this is not happening. And I left that six or eight hour shadowing experience telling him, I want a job. I want to move here. How can — what can I do here? Like, it was just — I don't know, people talk about it all the time. Like when you are looking for a house, like walking in and you just feel at home. Like I truly felt — it was such a welcoming space and there were so many exciting things happening that I was intrigued in and just the opportunity for growth there was really promising. It's part of — it's its own system. Where I was previously in Pittsburgh was a hospital within a ginormous system. So there was a little bit of a difference there and it was just intriguing. So I wrestled a lot with the idea — was thinking it was going to happen in a year and a half. I was in no rush to move. I still had to finish grad school. And then kind of the cards all fell into place and it happened — I think I applied five or six months after I came down. And I remember reaching out to you like, the job is still open that was open a couple months ago, like, should I apply? And you're like, why not? If you think you're gonna go — you were very encouraging about it. There was a lot of discussion back and forth, but I think at the end we were just like, why not? Like, let's see where this goes. And I applied and it took a couple months. And during that time it was — I think more and more I felt I wanted it, like I was gonna be very disappointed if it didn't work out. And that was my sign that it was time to go. But it was hard to have that conversation with my employers who really built me up into the leader and person that I am. They were with me from the very beginning with the residency and my first management role. So having that conversation with them was tough and they gave me some honest feedback of — we've put a lot into you and it might be a little challenging to come back. And that was something that I had to be okay with — possibly burning some bridges. And I think there's so many times throughout careers, especially when we're early in our career, you have people that don't care if they burn a bridge and then you have other people that really, really care about it. And I think either way is not necessarily bad, but I was one of those people that just based off of how my parents raised me, I didn't want to burn anything. It's like that was not what I wanted to do. And when I heard that I was really taken aback by it and it kind of made me second guess some things. But at the end of the day, I felt that this was the best move that I could make for me and my career. And I felt that down the line if something ever happens, like it will work out the way that it's supposed to. And I felt that I was proud of myself and the work that I did at my time in my previous role. So I felt that if the opportunity ever presented itself or I needed to come back to Pittsburgh for whatever reason or wanted to, there was enough connections within the area. So that kind of helped me reframe and regroup my perspective about moving down here.
Natalie Bulger
37:15
Well, and I know the burning bridge piece was just kind of forefront. We talked about it so many times and having the conversation too of how fluid the industry is. And I think once we both — and it was funny — once I think we started talking about it, I even realized how many of the leaders within Southwestern PA would leave and come back and leave and come back and leave and come back. And it was like a little bit of this — not a revolving door, but they would get an opportunity, they'd go lead a hospital somewhere else, come back and be a little further up in where they came back from. So in five years, who knows who will be here and who won't. And it may be a very fresh slate when it comes down to it. I think for a long time, Pittsburgh was very much run by a couple specific names that were always at the top. And those folks have retired — they're still on boards and things — but we've had a much more dynamic set of leadership within the insurance and the hospital industry. And we're still seeing it with some of the new partnerships and mergers that are coming out. So it created, I think, a little bit more of a safe space to say, you know, a couple of bridges may burn, but the whole town's not going to come down — you're good. But it also — very much in my reflection on it — was it was easy to mentor you because I felt like I could see myself in you. And I think we always find a couple of people like that when we're mentoring — kind of, okay, I know exactly what they need to hear because it's what I needed to hear when I was going through something like that. And the component of just apply to it, it's still up, you're still kind of thinking about it — that was advice one of my mentors had given me, Mike Bush, when he had said, hey, there were times where I wasn't even looking, but a job would come up, a recruiter would call and I don't know, maybe it was going to be the next thing for me. So I'd go ahead and apply. I'd go through the process and you know, when there was a point where he knew it wasn't going to be what he wanted, he would let them know to save their time and energy, but also it's great practice. It was a great way to learn about other systems. And it was that piece of the door opened and let's just see what might be on the other side of the door. And I think watching you go through that process helped when I decided to leave being in the federal government over the summer. And it was one of those like, all the signs were there. It was like this opportunity is here. If you're gonna do it, now is the time to do it. And to reflect back and be like, okay, you know that advice that you gave Mia-Ann and a couple other people — maybe you should take it yourself right now. So I think just really good kind of reflection and I'm sure it's the same thing you'll go through five, 10 years when you start talking to someone who's like, I don't know, should I do this thing or not? I'm so scared. And saying just — just jump. Just jump. And you can come back from it if it doesn't work out. There's a safety net for you.
Mia-Ann
40:09
Yeah, no, and I think that was the biggest thing — especially being young in my career — was like if I fail, I fail, like it's okay. And I think that was a big thing for me whenever I was going through it. I was just like, when else in my life am I ever going to have the opportunity to move across the country and start a job brand new from scratch, not knowing anybody? And it's been an experience. It's been two and a half years and I love it. Will probably be here for a long time. But it was such a whirlwind of emotions going through that. And I thank you for all the advice you gave me during it, because I think it really helped me know that it was okay to give it a shot and helped me have that confidence through there. So thank you.
Natalie Bulger
40:56
Well, and I think just being okay to be excited about something. You know, when we sat on that porch and I said this when we recorded in person — and I have to, it's my favorite story — you're like, yeah, I'm going to stop in Tennessee and spend the night and then I'll drive, finish driving. And I'm like, no, you won't. You'll drive straight through because you know, a year earlier I had said the same thing about driving back from Florida. And I was like, no, I'll stop, I'll make sure I'm rested. And I didn't — I drove the 16 hours — and I'm like, she's just like me. She's going to be excited. But that permission to be excited and to do that and take that a little extra stretch — sometimes it's what we need. We need someone to say, no, you sound crazy and that's great. Like be crazy right now, do the thing. So you did?
Mia-Ann
41:36
And I drove straight through. I did my best.
Natalie Bulger
41:50
I knew. So when you look at the next five to 10 years — because you are, how many years out of grad school are you now? Three? Be three this year? Three, four? Yeah. Feels like longer somehow, but also yeah. So when you look at this next five and you look at the next 10 — what type of things do you see being goals that you're going to shoot for or things that you might feel like are going to catch your interest? Because I never ask for a plan anymore because healthcare is going to look different two years from now. It's going to look different four years from now. There is no way to fully plan. So like, who's the leader that Mia-Ann is? What do you hope for her in those next five, 10 years?
Mia-Ann
42:24
Yeah, I think my biggest thing right now is trying to find where my true passion is within healthcare. I've been in operations for my whole time that I've been a leader and the whole experience that I have within healthcare has been operations and I love it. However, I feel — I don't know if that's my forever path. So trying to figure out strategic development is something that I'm leaning more towards. So I think my five year goal is to really hone in on my skills. I think I'm still in that early development stage of trying to figure out what that is and continuing to lead people up. I love when my employees — either they want to stay in their current position and excel at it, and I love helping them do that — or if they want to move on to other positions. It fills my cup so much. It's sad when they leave the team, but it fills my cup knowing that they're going to the position they're dreaming for, to step towards the position that they're dreaming for. I love that and I want that to continue forever and ever. But I think 10 years down the line, I hope to be in a role that I genuinely am loving and I'm good at and it highlights all my skills, but I'm also learning new ones and continuing to be a lifelong learner through that — something that I am dedicated to doing. But I think it's hard — and I think you're right — it's hard to have a plan or anything set in stone because it's forever changing and as I continue to grow and through this new company, I've learned that there's so many other positions out there and so many other different sectors of healthcare within a hospital system that you can go into. We learned a lot about in grad school, but I think you're getting flooded with so much information that you're like, I think I would just want to go into operations because it gives me a bit of everything, right? Like you got finances, you got access, you got experience, you have staffing and leadership and vendors, all the different provider relationships — you have it all. So it's been really great to experience that and figuring out what I really strive in and where are some areas I need to grow. So continuing to focus on that over the next few years and then hopefully landing something that highlights what my passion is and diving into that full force.
Natalie Bulger
44:40
Yeah, because hospitals are such a small percentage of things, to be quite honest. I think that even now I still learn more and more — like who are the vendors in the operating rooms that actually know the equipment that the physicians are using, the ambulance services that get the patients there, the skilled nursing, the DME companies, your pharmacy, your insurance — as much as we may hate some of these things, they all still play a part — all your supply chain, all of your community health providers that are the small ones working with, you know, the folks in that neighborhood — to food and wellness and all of those. It is such a massive industry. And when we talk about the percentage of the GDP that is healthcare, it isn't just all the surgeries that are happening in the hospital. It is so much of this other stuff. And I'm hopeful that in five to 10 years, what we'll see is a way to bring this all together to be a much more holistic delivery system. Not that it means it's one system running everything soup to nuts, but that there are clear pathways for the patient to navigate without barriers through what they need. And I know we're dealing with an AI boom right now, and what the heck is that gonna do to the need for coders and to documentation specialists? I mean, it can come down to your attorneys, those other things. So what I do know is that we're still going to need nurses. We're still going to need the clinical front lines. We're still going to need all of that. And I think the other piece that I've played around with — you're young, so maybe it'll even come up — is, hey, maybe one day we go back for a clinical degree of some sort. Or maybe we learn more about a specific device so that we can be a partner for those people that actually can deal with being in the surgery suite. But being open to that — and that's what it goes back to, right? Is that idea of it's gonna change. We've got to be open to the pathway that might land in front of us for when healthcare takes its next big pivot, depending on when that is. I mean, since COVID, I feel like it's pivoted every three seconds, but who knows? So, Mia-Ann, you're in Texas. We're coming up on the Super Bowl. Houston's out, the Steelers are out, Dallas is out. Are you rooting for anyone specifically? And when it comes down to it, are you going to be a Cowboys fan in the future now or are you gonna be a Steelers fan still?
Mia-Ann
47:07
That's a fair question. I am not big into the NFL, but my heart will always be with the Steelers. However, I can't lie, the Cowboys have grown on me — but Steelers will always come first, especially when they play each other. It's the Steelers over the Cowboys for sure.
Natalie Bulger
47:28
Black and yellow all the way. That will never leave us at the heart of things. So as we kind of reach into these last few minutes, I want to know — well, one, how people can find you or reach out to you. You mentioned someone reached out on LinkedIn. We all have limited time in our lives, so we can't mentor everyone or everything. But if someone listens to this and they're like, I want to at least take a look at kind of what she's done — maybe she knows someone I can connect with — how can people get in touch with you?
Mia-Ann
47:57
Yeah, absolutely. LinkedIn is the best place to reach me. Shoot me a message on there. Connect and I would love to set up time to talk, or if you're in the Dallas area, we can get coffee or whatever may work for you. Yeah, feel free to reach out.
Natalie Bulger
48:12
Awesome. And any other kind of thoughts that you want to share as we come to this close about the power of mentorship, about how people can seek or — I guess — enhance those relationships in a way? Like, how do you approach that? Because I think it's a good takeaway as we get into this. I found someone that I want to work with. I want to connect with them. So they found you through the podcast. They want to connect with you. How should they approach that and how have you found best to approach it from your perspective as well?
Mia-Ann
48:45
Yeah, I think — you told me once before in mentorship, we don't really ask somebody to be a mentor. We kind of build that relationship over time. And I've really carried that as true. If you want to build a relationship with somebody, like it takes effort and it takes time. It's not something that happens overnight in any sort of formal mentorship capacity. It's something that you continuously reach out — you continuously, within respect, respecting people's boundaries and time, but don't be afraid to ask for that time. Don't be afraid to reach out. Come prepared, I think — that's the biggest thing. And I still carry that to this day with any of the meetings that I have. I bring a list of things I want to discuss because I want to protect their time and be respectful of it, but also my time. I'm coming to this — I want to get something out of it. If I'm spending my time talking to somebody, if I have a big problem on my plate that I'm trying to solve or a situation I'm wrestling with, that's something that I want to talk about and I'm going to make sure that that is what we talk about. Leaving room for the other person to discuss anything that they want to as well. And also leaving that room open for us to converse together and for us to talk about things that they're going through because I can learn from that as well. Even if I'm not going through it or have any advice to give because I've never been through it, it's still an opportunity for me to learn what they're going through and for me to understand struggles of that position — if it's something that I'm aspiring to be one day — or that industry, just because it's a learning moment for everybody. So go in with an open mind, be prepared, and don't be afraid to ask the tough questions or reach out.
Natalie Bulger
50:23
I think the open mind and knowing that there's not going to be a magic potion that that mentor gives you during those conversations is great. I think if I added anything, I would be — you do — and you can preface something with, I just need to vent about what I'm dealing with right now. I just need someone that's a safe place to talk to. Or you are looking for advice on how to move forward or to do something. We hear that a lot in friendships — like, are you looking to vent or are you looking for me to help fix the situation? And the same goes for that mentorship relationship — it's completely fine. And that may help that mentor understand how much time do I need to set aside for this, or this can just be a quick call, or just text it to me. Like if you just need to get it out of your system, stick it in a voice memo and send it over. And you're going to know through those buildings of those mentorships which ones are the safe ones to do that with and which ones are the ones like, I'm not going to bother that CEO right now with some of that. That's the person I'm going to ask when I have a budget line concern or a very specific — how do I handle this employee relationship thing. And I think having that diversified group — you know, I'm thrilled I've got you still in the actual hospital system, I have a mentee that's in law, I have one that's in a startup — and so it also is nice when you cultivate, as the mentor, that diverse set of mentees to lean on and have available. And I know Mia-Ann, you've got a diverse set of mentors and now you're doing that exact same thing on the other end — kind of bookending it with, you know, whatever comes up, there's probably someone that you can reach out to. Or if you don't know someone, someone does. And that's the other piece — always being open to, hey, if you don't have time, do you know someone who might be a really great person to talk to? Because that journey is never done. You have people in there — you know, my mentors still tell me about new people they've met that they engage with. And I think it's a beautiful journey. So Mia-Ann, anything else before we wrap up the episode today that you'd like to make sure the listeners hear or make note of?
Mia-Ann
52:27
Thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun. I love that we got to do it again. This has been great and I appreciate it and I appreciate everything that you've done with the podcast. I think giving the listeners all of this amazing information — I love it because I feel like I'm getting mentor advice again from you through a podcast, which is wonderful. So I appreciate you having me.
Natalie Bulger
52:50
Awesome. Well, thanks for being here. And again, if you've listened to the episode today and you're as impressed with Mia-Ann as I am — and the fact that she's only three-ish years out of grad school and sounds as eloquent and pulled together and aware as she is — you're going to be able to reach out to her on LinkedIn. We'll include that information in the show notes for you. And we hope that you'll come back for another episode of Motivation N'at where we take hot mess to high potential in the near future. Thank you.